Sociopathy

[IDMclean]

Interesting, My half-Sister, and Father are Sociopaths. I found my dad frightening, though age has mellowed him significantly. My sister was really manipulative.

 

I'm a curious individual and seeing as I have just found out that I am on a forum with one of the interesting individuals that I seek to better understand I must know.

 

Some Questions for Pan:

How does Sociopathy affect your Logic-Emotion cycles?

Do you expirience passions in any real way?

What drives you to get up in the mornings?

Do you maintain a social fasade?

If so, how?

 

I wanted to study my dad and sister, however they aren't exactly the rational (I'm sure that's not the word I want to use but I can't think of better) types.

[CraigD]

The large number of people in this and similar threads claiming to either have or know people who have Antisocial Personality Disorder raises some interesting issues:

• The incidence of the disorder is low – 10/1000 men, 2/1000 women (per http://www.mentalneurologicalprimarycare.org/downloads/primary_care/Prevalence_of_disorders.rtf). Although the incidence is much higher among special populations (eg: as high as 50% in maximum security prisons), I’d expect the 590 members of hypography to be more like the general population, and have fewer than 5 people with the disorder.
  
• Most diagnostic definitions of the disorder (eg: http:// http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/criteria_personality_antisocial.htm) require the subject to display repeated inappropriate behaviors, typically violent and resulting in arrest and imprisonment.
  
• A common characteristic of the disorder is dishonesty, so one must regard the self-reported history of people who may have the disorder with strong skepticism. An internet forum is very ill-suited to determining a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder
  

Almost every person thoughtful and educated enough to be acquainted with the disorder has likely on occasion suspected he or she have it. Most people have, at some time in their life, exhibited violent, impulsive behavior, and lack of remorse. It does not follow from this that these people are mild to severe sociopaths.

 

I suspect that many people claiming to be sociopaths are instead exhibiting a self-perception phenomenon commonly termed “student’s psychosis”, where one incorrectly diagnoses oneself with a disorder one is studying.

 

If you suspect you have Antisocial Personality Disorder, ask yourself the following questions: Have you ever felt bad as a result of something you did? Have you ever felt you were to blame for something you wish had not happened? If you answer yes to either of these questions, it is unlikely you have the disorder.

 

Antisocial Personality Disorder, like most severe personality disorders, typically does not confer a life-long advantage on its sufferer. The disorder correlates strongly with a low quality of life, typically including alcohol and other substance abuse, injury, arrest, and imprisonment. The image of happy, privileged sociopaths is, I think, largely one created by fiction, and a poor representation of real disorder.

[Cedars]

The large number of people in this and similar threads claiming to either have or know people who have Antisocial Personality Disorder raises some interesting issues

 

 

Or you have to be nuts to visit this forum? ;)

 

Good post CraigD!

[IDMclean]

I would point out that there are a number of classifications of Sociopathy and also that the definitions and diagnositics of the Personality Disorders remains a violatile subject.

 

As this page says:

The diagnosis of APD has long been controversial. The criteria for it seem to change with each and every new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-I 1968; DSM-II 1976; DSM-III 1980; DSM-III-R 1987; DSM-IV 1994). The diagnosis was substantially changed with DSM-III when the APA decided to distinguish between child and adult characteristics, and essentially substituted behavioral criteria (like truancy or law violations) for personality criteria (like callousness and selfishness). In the DSM-III-R (R for Revised), the focus was on violence and a list of violent acts (fighting, cruelty to others, cruelty to animals).

 

The current DSM-IV approach essentially says that anything which is not sociopathy, psychopathy or dyssocial personality disorder is antisocial personality disorder, but there is considerable overlap. The diagnostic possibilities are endless; there are at least 3 million possible variations of symptoms on at least 62 different measurable items.

 

I'm also intrigued to know what variety of the personality disorders you, Pan, display, I believe you characterized yourself as a Sociopath not an ASPD.

 

Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD)

is practically synonymous with criminal behavior, but as with all distributions of a disease or whatever in a population, it is probable that the majority of people with this particular affliction are law-abiding. Aging, overinvolvements, and/or relationships might hold sway over the control (or lack of control) in these kind of people, and although approaching the study of offenders from a relationship & personality disorders point of view may or may not be productive, Dr. Drew is probably an adequate source of information on such matters. Dr. Drew's theory (and one with wide ramifications since he pretty much defines an antisocial tendency as thinking about one's self first) is that women with certain kinds of disorders, like borderline personality disorders, tend to be attracted to and hook up with men who manifest symptoms of psychopathic personality disorder (see Lecture on BPD & OCD) and that such match-ups may or may not be dysfunctional.

 

On the other hand, the field of criminology tends to treat APD as so synonymous, in fact, with criminal behavior that practically all convicted criminals (65-75%) have it, with criminologists often referring to it as a "wastebasket" category.

 

Antisocials come is all shapes and sizes, and psychologists consider the juvenile version of it to be a juvenile conduct disorder. The main characteristic of it is a complete and utter disregard for the rights of others and the rules of society. They seldom show anxiety and don't feel guilt. Although many people would hope that there's an effective treatment, there's really no effective treatment for them other than locking them up in a secure facility with such rigid rules that they cannot talk their way out. A full list of APD traits would include:

 

List of Antisocial Personality Disorder Traits

Sense of entitlement; Unremorseful; Apathetic to others; Unconscionable behavior; Blameful of others; Manipulative and conning; Affectively cold; Disparate understanding; Socially irresponsible; Disregardful of obligations; Nonconforming to norms; Irresponsible

 

whereas the DSM-IV "clinical" features of Antisocial Personality Disorder (with a person having at least three of these characteristics) are:

 

Clinical Symptoms for an Antisocial Personality Disorder Diagnosis

1. Failure to conform to social norms; 2. Deceitfulness, manipulativeness; 3. Impulsivity, failure to plan ahead; 4. Irritability, aggressiveness; 5. Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; 6. Consistent irresponsibility; 7. Lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person

 

Sociopathy

is chiefly characterized by something wrong with the person's conscience. They either don't have one, it's full of holes like Swiss cheese, or they are somehow able to completely neutralize or negate any sense of conscience or future time perspective. Sociopaths only care about fulfilling their own needs and desires - selfishness and egocentricity to the extreme. Everything and everybody else is mentally twisted around in their minds as objects to be used in fulfilling their own needs and desires. They often believe they are doing something good for society, or at least nothing that bad.

 

The term "sociopath" is frequently used by psychologists and sociologists alike in referring to persons whose unsocialized character is due primarily to parental failures (usually fatherlessness) rather than an inherent feature of temperament.

 

Lykken (1995), for example, clearly distinguishes between the sociopath (who is socialized into becoming a psychopath) and a "true" psychopath (who is born that way). However, this may only describe the "common sociopath", as there are at least four (4) different subtypes -- common, alienated, aggressive, and dyssocial. Commons are characterized mostly by their lack of conscience; the alienated by their inability to love or be loved; aggressives by a consistent sadistic streak; and dyssocials by an ability to abide by gang rules, as long as those rules are the wrong rules.

 

As Stout (2005) indicates, it only takes three of the following to be defined as a sociopath, and some common sociopathic traits include:

 

List of Common Sociopathic Traits

Egocentricity; Callousness; Impulsivity; Conscience defect; Exaggerated sexuality; Excessive boasting; Risk taking; Inability to resist temptation; Antagonistic, deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex; Lack of interest in bonding with a mate

 

Psychopathy

is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility; shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993). The crimes of psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence. While almost all societies would regard them as criminals (the exception being frontier or warlike societies where they might become heroes, patriots, or leaders), it's important to distinguish their behavior from criminal behavior.

 

As a common axiom goes in psychology, MOST PSYCHOPATHS ARE ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITIES BUT NOT ALL ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITIES ARE PSYCHOPATHS. This is because APD is defined mainly by behaviors (Factor 2 antisocial behaviors) and doesn't tap the affective/interpersonal dimensions (Factor 1 core psychopathic features, narcissism) of psychopathy. Further, criminals and APDs tend to "age out" of crime; psychopaths do not, and are at high risk of recidivism.

 

Psychopaths love to intellectualize in treatment with their half-baked understanding of rules. Like the Star Trek character, Spock, their reasoning cannot handle any mix of cognition and emotion. They are calculating predators who, when trapped, will attempt escape, create a nuisance and danger to staff, be a disruptive influence on other patients or inmates, and fake symptoms to get transferred, bouncing back and forth between institutions. The common features of psychopathic traits (the PCL-R items) are:

 

List of Common Psychopathic Traits

Glib and superficial charm; Grandiose sense of self-worth; Need for stimulation; Pathological lying; Conning and manipulativeness; Lack of remorse or guilt; Shallow affect; Callousness and lack of empathy; Parasitic lifestyle; Poor behavioral controls; Promiscuous sexual behavior; Early behavior problems; Lack of realistic, long-term goals; Impulsivity; Irresponsibility; Failure to accept responsibility for own actions; Many short-term marital relationships; Juvenile delinquency; Revocation of conditional release; Criminal versatility

 

I know that is very Biased and all but it was one of the more complete pieces I've looked at in-so-far.

 

I Know I display traits of a Oppessitional Personality dissorder, as well as co-morbidity of Narssisstic Personality (NPD), Obsessive Complusive (OCD), Attention Deficit Hyper-Activeness (ADHD), and Common/Agressive Sociopathy.

 

I lived my life so far (19+) from ages 6 years to about 15 being treated for my various psychosises. I've since conquered my Dissociative Rage, channeling my anger into appropiate uses and such.

 

I use in my day to day life Cognitive Therapy and a kind of mental structure, much like a If-Then-Else tree. I am emotional from time to time and I feel love towards people however it isn't ground breaking, like when my grandma died recently, I sobbed for the three days (a few hours total) I was with her, sitting beside her bed, but it just doesn't strike me as sad. My grandma decided to die, and I am ok with that.

 

Most of my family and allot of her friends have expressed severe dissatisfaction at her choice however I see it as her choice. I feel like maybe I should feel more about it, but my life goes on and so it doesn't exactly impact me the way I thought it should... Same for other familial relations, except more so.

 

My grandma was someone I had grown up with and had a fairly good relationship with, I had a less engaged relationship in these last few years due to a difference of opinion on a number of subjects.

 

My great Aunt, whom past away a few years ago, I didn't feel anything. I didn't care. The only difference was in the degree of attachment. My great grandfather, a few aunts and uncles. none of them elicited emotional responce in any real way.

 

Oh and the list I gave for my disorders and such is far from complete, I've been diagnosised with a few others that I can't remember and most of this has been over a rather prolonged period of time.

 

One must be careful of extreames, as not everyone is 3-5 standard deviations from the norm. I know that in some ways I am, but If you met me face to face you might not even realize. It's one of the things that makes finding out defining factors for personality disorders is that most sociopaths you wouldn't know they were unless you kept a careful eye open.

[IDMclean]

Like I said my main Pathy is that of OPD.

 

I find that I react poorly to being cohersed into doing things, I figure it developed from my exposure to my father, his wife, and their daughter. (all three are Sociopaths, Suzy, the wife, has since learned empathy. It was the most shocking thing that ever happened to me, when I was unexpectedly apologized to, in a sincere way, for all the wrongs that had been done to me and my brother.)

 

And yes I have seen Killer Clowns From Outer Space, it was part of the inspiration for my screen name. I have a pre-disposition to distrusting clowns, due to there nature and proximity to young children.

 

I know that as far as inheritence goes i got plenty coming my way, as my mother's side offers a different flavor of psychosis. My other great aunt is a severe Schizophernic, with some flavor of dissociation. When she's not on her meds she says that jesus and god make her do things, and when she's on her meds she creepy. I don't hang out with her much.

 

I found that when I figured out how to deal with my anger I kinda lost some of my passion, I don't get angry as readily anymore and am more prone to work things out in logic before reacting. It's one of the reasons I asked the question: Do you expirience passions in any real way?

 

I feel like sometimes I should have more of a emotional responce to somethings but I generally don't and it doesn't bother me persay, it just kind gives me this feeling like I'm a stranger in a stranger land.

 

I have to say that going through puberty helped me allot, it was a severe experince that luckly I didn't cause any lasting damage and at the end of it I find that I have a better grasp about what is going and why.

 

Oh and for classification of mental type I am:

Introvert Intuitive, Thinking, Perceiving. or INTP

[IDMclean]

Meyer Briggs I believe it is.

 

So your an Extrovert iNtuitive Feeling Perceiver? ENFP

 

(On a personal note, I think I'm in love with Wikipedia)

 

The scariest thing that I have ever encountered was when I learned that if I want to I can shut off my emotional responses and become a true Psychopath, it's a scary sensation, after the fact, to realize that you REALLY didn't care. I have only done it a few times and have not done it since I was 12 at least.

 

For a period of time I would become rather unpleasant to be around as a response to stress and such, and occasionally it would get to a state where I would outburst. These outbursts of rage would usually lead to me Dissociating certain regulators from my consciences mind, resulting in Dissociative Rage (AKA Blind Rage, or Beserker).

 

I'm just glad I didn't kill and/or maime anyone, which isn't to say I haven't hurt people :) . There's good reason now-a-days that I am a pacifist.

[IDMclean]

That's my take on it.

 

Since I learned Psychology, Philosophy, and Ethics, I can't go a day without observing people around me and sitting there, noting to myself, the obivious psychosis that they exhibit. I find that I quiet enjoy watching people, just sitting and listening. Most people don't have a clue how they work or why they do the things they do.

 

Universal Truth of Clownism, All people hurt inside. If these people didn't laugh, they would cry.

[Michaelangelica]

(On a personal note, I think I'm in love with Wikipedia)

 

There's good reason now-a-days that I am a pacifist.

I am amazed by the amount of insight people posting to this forum have.

I is truly amazing in ones so young.

Good for you

 

However I do think that one needs to be careful when studying psychology or medicine ( or reading Wikapedia) that one does not apply every disease state to oneself.

I had every syndrome mentioned when I studied psychopathology.

Michael:)

[IDMclean]

sym·pa·thy

1.

1. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.

2. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.

2.

1. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.

2. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration. Often used in the plural. See Synonyms at pity.

 

em·pa·thy

n.

 

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.

2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

 

Does sociopathy happen because the individual is "sick" or the society is "sick" and the sociopathic individual is alienated from it?

The psychologist R. D. Laing seems to suggest that the latter may sometimes be the case.

'Sick' families, like sick societies, try to create 'sick' people so that they beter 'fit' into a sick system.

 

I like that. I've long felt alienated from this society I live in. It's taken me allot of time to come to terms with why it works the way it does.

 

I was thinking about how I was hawkish to start with but have since adapted with dovish techniques and tendencies...

 

It brings to light a phenomena, like with a certain breed of african toads, when it is no longer adaptive for there to be more of one gender a few will shift from male to female or female to male. This seems similar, if a imbalance occurs of doves to hawks then it is possible for a hawk to become a dove and vice versa.

[Michaelangelica]

I like that. I've long felt alienated from this society I live in. It's taken me allot of time to come to terms with why it works the way it does.

A lot of very intelligent people like yourself, and others on this thread, feel different, alienated, alone.

Fruit-cakes like Kafka/Sarte would say to be ultimately alone is our fate

I think we are all conjoined by our humanity "No man is an Island " etc (J. Donne)

 

You have an amazing ability to adapt and change.

Your last post gave me goose bumps.I don't know why.

You would enjoy R.D. Laing. When I was psychiatric nurse 35 years ago we used to run an underground staff newspaper heavily laced with masses of Laing.

( We would often get a person, often a kid, "well" and next week another victim of the same family would come in.)

Banging your head on a brick wall would be more productive than what we were paid to do. Now at least we have some family therepy

 

You might also enjoy Sacks an amazing psychiatrist with incredible insight and compassion. Try "The Man who Thought his Wife was a Hat" !

 

I have made a note to go back and read all the links you gave on cannabis.

Not tonight; too much, (headache anti-biotics etc) but thank you for such informative, and helpful posts,here, and in other threads.:lightbulb

 

Did you read my last line in the cannabis thread?

Do you still feel alone?

The Internet is amazing:)

[IDMclean]

Fruit-cakes like Kafka/Sarte would say to be ultimately alone is our fate

I think we are all conjoined by our humanity "No man is an Island " etc (J. Donne)

 

I don't see anything wrong with being alone. I also would disagree with J. Donne. I know it seems to conflict with my assertion that all is one, however it doesn't. It has to do with mathematics and philosophical trees that I haven't completely sorted out or simplified suffiencently.

 

I believe that people make the world around them, mutually with other people making their world. That each person is indeed an island to themselves. We interact but we are distinct and seperate, as far as that concept can go with the belief that one is the same as another.

 

If I could share my mind, meld together, with another we would be one, once again and we would be alone together. Does this make sense?

 

I've found that my philosophies and beliefs cause for a kinda melancholy in others, but they are quiet comforting to me.

 

It was in Donnie Darko that said somethings that struck a cord with me.

"Every living creature on earth dies alone"

I can only hope that the answers will come to me in my sleep. I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.

 

The Internet is amazing

Yup, beat by only a few things, one of which is of course, people.

[IDMclean]

Panj and I have been discussing our PDs and I've determined that I would be a low order Personality disorder, with Panj definately beating me out. I have emotional response, I don't believe Panj does. The one thing that is certain is that Panj is a classic Sociopath. With the only exception being that she does not exhibit the tendencies of a Dyssocial Sociopath.

[Queso]

whatever

[IDMclean]

Well, schizophernic, if you wish to discuss then by all means, tell us.

 

How does it manifest, how long did it take for you to recognize. I'm not a schizo myself so I have little experience. I am just as interested to hear about your mind's workings as you are to hear mine.

[Michaelangelica]

Yup.

 

And what would be the point of further discussion?

 

Can we talk about Schizophrenia now? :)

Start another thread on it. It is too big and too important a topic not to have its own thread

[Kriminal99]

Michael, yes Ive considered other possibilities, and no they dont apply to me. I certainly dont have aspergers :)

 

Also, Im female.

 

No, it doesnt worry me. I dont get worried. As for something missing, yes I do 'feel' that. It doesnt bother me, tho.

 

Racoon, Im hardly a terrorist. They are motivated by zealotry, which I am immune to. its strange how many people think it must suck to have no emotions, but I think Im better off without them. They just make people weak.

 

I agree. Most people's behavior is completely devoid of reasoning. They can seem to understand it, but not apply it to themselves when it contradicts their emotions.

 

A simple example that I can think of that relates to your beliefs regarding sociopaths as leaders. For example I believe that the number of people who agree with you in an argument is irrelevant. Even if you want to call being correct a function of how many people agree (since noone can ever be sure something is right) then you still have to consider that something logically correct will ultimately have the potential to convince an infinite number of people in the future. Then there is the argument that if you and others agreed with a belief just because others agreed then the very fact that "everyone agrees" becomes irrelevant- a circular argument. Therefore you must remain skeptical until fully convinced without consideration of what others think. Another similar argument is that only an idea that is logically correct has the power to gain you social acceptance across different social groups.

 

Because of beliefs like these I will participate in gauntlet style arguments (in real life as well as on the internet) where large numbers of people disagree with what I say, perhaps violently. Often times the result is that many people's views are changed (whether or not they admit it right away or ever) because someone was actually willing to break the barrier of intimidation to provide opposing viewpoints.

 

Other people seem to ignore the above reasoning instead being driven by emotions which seem to be driven by poor reasoning.. Usually making meaningless statements like "Who do you think you are?" This seems to indicate a completely different power stucture from mine, ie one which equates superficial social acceptance to power. Whereas mine equates truth to power.

 

Were I easily intimidated by people becoming angry when I disagreed with them, how could I ever get past such ignorant beliefs? I would feel forced to agree with people and in turn be angry with anyone who didn't succumb to this same source of power.

 

Or maybe it is the other way around... I had an experience that impressed upon me that truth and understanding is power from an early age which caused me to seek understanding of the world on my own, eliminating surprise which perhaps is a necessary component for emotion. Other people speak of social situations with excitement, where everyone's behavior is completely predictable to me...

 

Also there are personal lifestyle factors which seem to play a part... Although very difficult I can live a certain way such that my emotions seem to be MUCH stronger than other times... Resulting in things like stronger desire to chase after girls etc... Even do things like go dancing when other times I think of an activity like dancing the same way I look at a dog chasing its own tail... And can still recall beleifs which motivate this in such a state...

 

This subject is really interesting to me.

 

My favorite thing to tell religous people is that fear of death is dependent on being alive (your mind forces you to remember things that are beneficial such that you don't leave them lightly when you have the choice) and so fear of death is meaningless and knowing this is all I need to escape such fear. But then they ask me to prove it...

[CraigD]

I’ve noticed in several posts of this thread what I think is a misunderstanding of Antisocial Personality Disorder. For example:

The scariest thing that I have ever encountered was when I learned that if I want to I can shut off my emotional responses and become a true Psychopath

If dysfunctional (disadvantageous), “shut off emotions” would be considered either an affectation disorder, or a Disassociative Personality Disorder.

 

Sociopaths are frequently characterized as having “shallow” emotions, but, compared to the general population, tend to be more emotional, and less able to control their impulses and emotions. The defining characteristic of a sociopath is not lack of all emotions, but of a particular constellation of emotions: remorse and empathy.

 

Shutting off one’s emotions is not ordinarily dysfunctional. It’s a skill essential to many professions, and one possessed by many psychologically normal people. Mental health caregivers who lack this skill are rarely successful in the field. Soldier unable to be “frosty” are less effective than those who able. Even people in less demanding professions often benefit from the ability to voluntarily deaden their emotional affect.

 

Rather than being afraid of this ability, I think people should take comfort in knowing they have it, and people who do not, train themselves to acquire it. It can come in very handy. It can allow you to save you life, or the life of others.