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[CraigD]

The Physics and Mathematics thread5760 has inspired me to confide one of my oldest and wildest technological fantasies. Imagine, if you will, the following:

 

The Alfs, a civilization in a Milky Way-like galaxy about as technically advanced as our own (but with a very different sense of priorities!) places 3 large visible light mirrors in near (to their star system) interstellar space, in a triangular configuration with sides about 1 LY long. The mirrors are configured and precisely aligned to form a synthetic aperture slightly larger than 1 LY in diameter, with its focus at a point about 5,000 LY distant along a line lying in the same spiral arm.

 

The Braks, a civilization within a few tens of light years of the Alfs’ mirror’s focus, are somewhat more technically advances, having a program deep space exploration tens of light years in radius. One of their probes passes near the Afl’s mirror’s focus and detects the optical anomaly. Eventually, it is recognized for what it is, and probes are positioned at and around its vicinity.

 

The Braks now have a telescope showing them an image from 10,000 years in their own past. It’s optical resolution is about the same as a typical high-power (3 cm diameter) rifle scope at 300 meters range. Assuming the Braks’ planet has a mostly transparent atmosphere similar to earth, and have the technology to compensate for atmospheric distortion, aberration from the slightly off-focus viewing necessary to precisely aim this fixed telescope, and the very low light levels its small total mirror area reflects, they should now be able to view events occurring on the planets surface 10,000 years in its past, with about the same optical resolution as being there.

 

Assuming the Braks have a history about as long as our own, their equivalent of anthropology would now have not only archeological evidence, but a direct video record.

 

I’ve some even more exotic variations on this theme (which allow one to dispense with the role of the improbably altruistic Alfs, and increase the utility of the technique), but want to present the core idea simply before describing them.

 

Comments?

[alxian]

only that the Braks would need FTL drives to get to the Alfs before their historical record in light did.

 

OR that the Alfs have a PVR filled with 10k year of Braks evolution.

[CraigD]

only that the Braks would need FTL drives to get to the Alfs before their historical record in light did.

 

OR that the Alfs have a PVR filled with 10k year of Braks evolution.

I’m assuming nothing more technically exotic than the ability of the Alfs and Braks to accelerate spacecraft to modest velocities not much greater to those we can currently manage with out own probes – that, and to build giant, super-precise optics in space. No FTL is required.

 

I’m assuming that Alf and Brak civilization is about like our own – a few thousand years of recorded history, capable of spaceflight for only the last century or two. Importantly, Brak civilization must be about 10,000 years older than Alf. (as viewed by a hypothetical, equidistant 3rd observer)

 

The idea here is that, prior to detecting the optical anomaly, the Braks were unaware that the Alfs existed. Most likely the Alfs configured the mirror to a very short focal length, and used it to search for a planet containing people – prehistoric Braks, as it turned out – who, by their best guess, might be able in 5,000 years to detect and take advantage of the telescope, then reconfigured it to its final configuration and left it alone, with no way of knowing it the scheme would succeed.

 

The Alfs are practicing extreme altruism and optimism. Given their physical separation (5000 LY) between them, there’s no way they can have 2-way communication, or otherwise receive anything of benefit from the Braks, nor can the Braks return the favor by showing the Alfs their own past with a similar telescope – they’d be 10,000 years too late. It’s possible, perhaps even likely, that by the time the Braks find the telescope, it and the Alfs’ civilization will be non-functional.

[Turtle]

Comments?

Sweet idea Craig! What to do now eh? Settle longstanding arguments?

But wait! Any images not recorded (or per se seen) would be lost. The resources to "see" without missing something potentially essential would overwhelm the Braks. They would stop eating & sleeping & working in their obsession to see more; to see it all.:evil: :) :shrug: :cup:

[arkain101]

That would take a long time to set-up.. 1ly this way.. another light year that way.. a light year between communications to aiming and guiding the mirros.. lol..

 

cool idea though.. even if we were to build up a 1min in the past setup here on earth.

 

Send a really big telescope like hubble out to Jupiters orbit, aim it back at ourselves and recieve images.

[Turtle]

I honestly had to google the word Synergetics, and didnt find anything in time to explain it well enough for me to get an idea of what exactly it is.

Nope, I have not heard of Fuller or his work.

 

Then you're in for a treat; follow the link in my sig for a complete & free online copy of Synergetics (the name of one of Fuller's books).

 

On the Jupiter idea, we rather do that already with radio sending digitized images. Mmmm...I guess the difference is the large telescope needs no power source though...:rain:

[arkain101]

*gets confused*

your mixin up topics turtle, lol, good on ya dude.

[Turtle]

*gets confused*

your mixin up topics turtle, lol, good on ya dude.

 

Actually I think the interface didn't log your post I quoted from; it's that bug that's goin' around.:rain:

[alxian]

what i'm saying is that what difference does it make how much older they are... if the braks are 10k years ahead they'd need to be 10k+- the time it takes their light to reach the alfs. unless the alfs have been recording for more than 1000 years the braks won't have much to see on the Alfs PVR.

 

if however they are over 10 LY away and get there within a few years of discovering the Alfs or happening to pass by them on the way to somewhere else they could see much more once they get to the Alfs planet.. though it would still take 10k years of exposure for the Alfs to collect all the data arriving to them.. by which time the braks will have subjugated them anyway...?

[Kayra]

What would be the consequences to us if we were able to actually watch our history over the last 10,000 years?

 

A damned interesting concept Craig, and if FTL is ever figured out, one we might yet live to see. (eternal optimist here)

[Turtle]

What would be the consequences to us if we were able to actually watch our history over the last 10,000 years?

 

The consequence is that the following 20,000 years is nothing but us watching the previous 10,000 & arguing over what we 'see'.:eek:

[Kayra]

The consequence is that the following 20,000 years is nothing but us watching the previous 10,000 & arguing over what we 'see'.:eek:

 

Would that not be one of the consequence of one of the consequences?

[Turtle]

Would that not be one of the consequence of one of the consequences?

 

I think so, yes. My thought is that spending too much time studying the past limits 'new doings', that is things not ever done in the past. The adage about ignorance of the past dooming one to repeat the past seems to imply the past is more important than now. It does get very circular doesn't it.:eek: :)

[InfiniteNow]

It does get very circular doesn't it.:eek2: :eek2:

I am pretty sure it was my own musings along this avenue which led me into Hypography...

 

 

Cheers. :cool:

[TheFaithfulStone]

There's a story called "The Light of Other Days" by Baxter and Clarker where people invent a "WormCam" that allows them to see light rays from the past. Then we have to reinvent our religion when we discover Jesus was a bastard and Moses was a myth.

 

Privacy vanishes, but so do corruption and crime, since we can always use the WormCam to go back and find out exactly what happened.

 

I thinks it's debatable whether the Alphs are being altruistic, or just especially devious. What better way to destablize a society than to let them in on the little secret that everything they know is a lie..

 

 

And then... lunchtime for aliens! :cool:

 

TFS

[The worm]

The worm says

like your line of thinking but time travel theroy's have allways amused me i would belive in a forward step but backward is always a different matter:naughty: .This would mean that time would be an entity in a sold mass so this would create the question what happens once we have travel through a point in time does that point remain or in steven kings the langaers its eaten by a strange creature.as soon as someone can give me prof that time is a solid state and not just a unit of measurement then i might change my views .Final note if it was possiable it would lead to the biggest mistake scienist have made!!!??:confused: em am i really curious or am i in a state of apathy like the rest of the planet how cares no one

[InfiniteNow]

So if you don't start with "the worm says," should we ignore your posts?

 

*The worm says "Go."

*The worm says "Stop."

"Go."

*Haha... the worm didn't say... :eek2:

 

 

Anyway, a few quick points.

 

Travelling backward in time does not necessitate it being an "entity in a solid mass." Only that our understanding of entropy and thermodynamics and causality be adjusted a bit.

 

Stephen King's book is called "The Langoliers," and if you are using fictional acocunts as your basis of reality, I'd suggest you read "8 Verses for Training the Mind" instead.

 

The onus on you is to support your own claims, not for others to prove them wrong (although there is some conceivable interplay between the two).

 

If you were truly apathetic, you wouldn't have posted with the tone you did. You clearly are interested and clearly care. As for the rest of the planet being apathetic, that's a tough call. Maybe the people who compose your entire planet support this sense, but the population with whom you interact and which compose your view of life are not, as best I can tell, a representative sample of the planet at large. Some care, some don't. Simple.