Colonialism: Imperial greed or evolutionary imperative?

[MagnetMan]

Forums are more blood sport than tools for consensus. As soapbox prophets in Hyde Park soon find, for every convert a hundred mockers are just rattling your cage. [“ .. this prophet ended by being locked up in an asylum, where he will have to convert the doctor before he can recover his liberty."]

 

MM, I followed your signature to that website and found a noble-minded if audacious theory - difficult to disprove, impossible to prove.

 

If you authored those ideas, and are such an old hand on the forums, surely you can do better than this.

Thank you for your sage advise. I will take it to heart. I have too much passion for my own good.

[zee]

This is my first post and I am here because of this thread.I am angery at some posts here.

1.It sadens me to see that a human being ,who can be so much more than just be a slave to his bio-makeup,is not willing to realize the powers that are there within him.

2.Colonialism is definately Imperialist greed and the greedy Imperialists use this evolutionary imperative as an excuse for their injustices. I have lived in countries that were colonies and this much I can tell you that Imperialism in any form can not be good.

3.There is no equality in Imperialism or Colonialism. When there is no equality for the human beings ,it will create groups based on discrimination giving rise to violence.

4.Imperialism does not allow the right of self determination.If the people were allowed to choose for themselves then IMF:evil: ,World Bank:evil: or WTO :hyper: would not have a chance to make people economic slaves.:)

[questor]

zee, countries may have been colonized because of greed, but which ex-colonies would you consider to be most successful after achieving their independence?

[Eclogite]

I have lived in countries that were colonies and this much I can tell you that Imperialism in any form can not be good.

I have lived in countries that were colonies and I can tell you that Imperialism, either directly, or indirectly, intentionally or accidentally, can be a force for good. Illustrate your negative examples, then I shall be pleased to offer some of my positive ones.

 

[by the way, while self righteous indignation can be very satsifying, it rarely advances a debate, or leads to a meeting of minds.]

[MagnetMan]

I have lived in countries that were colonies and I can tell you that Imperialism, either directly, or indirectly, intentionally or accidentally, can be a force for good. Illustrate your negative examples, then I shall be pleased to offer some of my positive ones.

 

Now we are on the same page. I was heading in that direction myself, but would be pleased to hear your examples. The positive side of the colonial picture needs a lot more exposure if there is to be any significant change to the anti-colonial view that is currently being taught in Universities. A more balanced virew will lead to better race relations.

+

[Eclogite]

I shall give, at this point, a single example: Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew. In a generation he took a third world country, 30% of whose revenue was derived from the departing British and transformed it into a vibrant, technologically advanced country. And he did so employing much of what he learned while being educated at Oxford. (If it was Cambridge, please don't nit pick. Cambridge is almost as good.:lol: )

The existence of an educated middle class (courtesy of colonialism), a robust beurocracy (courtesy of colonialism) and a commercial foundation (courtesy of colonialism) aided him in this task.

 

[As a complete aside, this has reminded me of standing on a balcony on the south side of the island in 1973 watching the British Fleet leave Singapore (as a base) for the last time. A symbolic milestone in the End of Empire. Ah, well. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.]

[MagnetMan]

I shall give, at this point, a single example: Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew. In a generation he took a third world country, 30% of whose revenue was derived from the departing British and transformed it into a vibrant, technologically advanced country. The existence of an educated middle class (courtesy of colonialism), a robust beurocracy (courtesy of colonialism) and a commercial foundation (courtesy of colonialism) aided him in this task.

 

It would be nice if the colonial example of Singapore could have been repeated in Africa. Two more generations of colonial occupation might well have produced a similar result and global race-relations would have been on a better footing than they are today. Before anyone takes exception to that claim, let me give a first hand example.

 

In 1959 I got a job as a geological field officer in Tanganyika, which was then part of British Colonial East Africa. During the next two years I got to see at first hand, not just how the British Home Office, in its final days, managed a part of its once mighty Empire, but also what happened when it folded. I got to appreciate, not just the British Colonial Admisitration and its strict tradition of incorruptible service, via a complex governmental system of British Provincial Commissioners, District, Police, Army, Agricultural, Medical and Civil Engineering Officers, but also the huge capital investement made over the previous seventy years, installing a vast infrastructure of schools, harbors, rails, roads, hydro-electricyty, tele communicaions and commercial services in the middle of the Dark Continent.

 

Then in 1960 Harold MacMillan gave his famous 'winds of change " speech and everything began to change for real. All of Africa decided it wanted independence over-night, with only the most naive grasp of what responsible government entailed. One of the conditions of granting independence was the formation of local political parties in Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika. These parties had to go out among the native populace and poll their responses about receiving independence.

 

It that time I was in charge of a native work force of 300 African men and women. Among all of them, only one was educated enough to be employed as a payroll clerk. 80% of them were still largely iliterate. One day a delegation from the Tanganiyika African National Union TANU came and asked for permission to poll my work force. I knew enough Swahili, to sit in and get the gist of meeting. The party officials argued the case of Uhuru (Freedeom) and sealed the deal by telling all present that when Independence day came. they would be given immediate ownership all the company vehicles and mining equipment in the camp - even my personal cheque book and be able to draw money from the bank just like I did. All three hundred put their thumb prints on the dotted line right away.

 

And so most of Africa went this way down the Independence Road, with no clear idea of how to manage and service the complex infrustructures they inherited.

 

If one looks back at the gradual developments of human evolution, a logical sequence of increasingly complex social advances emerges. Colonialism is one of our vital steps. We have gone from simple family groups, to clan groups. to national groups, and via colonilaism, to international groups. We stand on the verge of becoming a global group today.

 

My argument since leaving Africa, (which has been shouted down by enraged students in many a University debating hall on the subject of race relations) is that Africa got independence prematurely - that colonialism, for all its human-rights abuses, served a vital purpose in human development. That by getting a raw deal from the anti-colonial movements, the truth of the matter was not being properly served, which in turn kept the wounds of bad race-relations from healing.

 

Preliterate tribal Europe was in the same position as Africa, 2000 years ago during Roman occupation. It took eighty generations to get us all educated and industrialized. Africa is going through the exact same process of human development today. The difference is that She does not have to invent the wheel all over again. If we help Her as teachers and not as slave drivers or commercial expploiters, she can get to an idustrialized level inside one generation.

[questor]

since man supposedly originated in Africa, and since many africans have attended school in major western universities, what would be the reasons for Africa to lag almost all civilized countries? esecially since Egypt was once the worlds most advanced civilization?

[MagnetMan]

since man supposedly originated in Africa, and since many africans have attended school in major western universities, what would be the reasons for Africa to lag almost all civilized countries? esecially since Egypt was once the worlds most advanced civilization?

 

Man migrated out of Africa some 200,000 years ago. For the next 180.000years we all continued to exist as hunter/gatherers, including those left in Africa. Some 15 to 20 thousand years ago, the Nile, Euphrates and Indus valleys (fertile crescent) was where the first farming began. The Sahara was a barrier that stopped horticultural technology from spreading South. In any case sub-saharan Africa is mainly dry bushveld or dense Ituri Forest. So the technology went North and took until coloniial times to make the full circle.

 

Most Africans attending our schools study law or medicine, for those are the two subjects most likely to further their political or existential careers. Many refuse to return to Africa, for there is not many jobs back home. Very few study the hard sciences and will not until there is a market for their services back home. So we also have Catch 22 as one of Aftrica's many probelms.

[Boerseun]

Africa self-destructed post colonialism, because the Western colonial powers withdrew prematurely because of political decisions and economic considerations post World War 2. Europe decided to attempt suicide between 1939-44, and the economic repurcussions of that idiocy made the administration of far-flung colonies impossible. That, together with the West and the USSR engaging in proxy warfare in third-world countries, where these two Superpowers made turns to bribe these unsophisticated states into submission, made the proper advancement towards development impossible.

 

Notice the relative stability in Africa after 1990? Civil wars have stopped in Angola, Mozambique, and a host of other countries because the West and USSR aren't raping Africa to submit into one or the other sphere of influence now. Granted, there still are horrible wars going on, Somalia, the Congo, etc. - but it's not a patch on what it used to be in the 80s.

It's easy to sit back and point fingers at the Africans, but the West (and USSR) don't exactly have clean hands in this matter.

 

Training is good and well, MagnetMan, but I'm still of the opinion that we should get a vibrant informal economy of first-line entrepeneurs going, and build on what we have here in Africa instead of sending students abroad to such idealist institutions like your "Global Stewardship Foundation". They simply will not return. The University of South Africa have got satellite campuses all over South Africa, and they provide distance learning all over the world, as a matter of fact. This kind of infrastructure should be aggressively expanded all over Africa. All you need is a mailbox, and the address of the South African consulate in your capital where you write exams.

South Africa is ideally placed to provide this service. After all, Pretoria is the city after Washington with the most number of embassies and consulates in the World, and reciprocally, have got embassies and consulates in all the countries represented in Pretoria.

That's what we need.

[MagnetMan]

Africa self-destructed post colonialism, because the Western colonial powers withdrew prematurely because of political decisions and economic considerations post World War 2. Europe decided to attempt suicide between 1939-44, and the economic repurcussions of that idiocy made the administration of far-flung colonies impossible. That, together with the West and the USSR engaging in proxy warfare in third-world countries, where these two Superpowers made turns to bribe these unsophisticated states into submission, made the proper advancement towards development impossible.

 

Very well summed up. Though some blame should fall on the naivette of African intellectuals and politicians who asked for ( and in many cases demanded) premature independence in the first place. Britain at least gave them that option. Though the buck falls on those who should have foreseen ( and probably did) see the folly that would follow.

 

Notice the relative stability in Africa after 1990? Civil wars have stopped in Angola, Mozambique, and a host of other countries because the West and USSR aren't raping Africa to submit into one or the other sphere of influence now. Granted, there still are horrible wars going on, Somalia, the Congo, etc. - but it's not a patch on what it used to be in the 80s.

It's easy to sit back and point fingers at the Africans, but the West (and USSR) don't exactly have clean hands in this matter.

 

True to some extent. But the rise in starvation, crime and AIDS has been even more devastating than war.

 

Training is good and well, MagnetMan, but I'm still of the opinion that we should get a vibrant informal economy of first-line entrepeneurs going, and build on what we have here in Africa instead of sending students abroad to such idealist institutions like your "Global Stewardship Foundation". They simply will not return.

The idea is not to send them back into a vacuum after training. But to accompany them back with an international volunteer corps of young students - plus all the equipment and backing needed to get Africa's infrastructure on par with the West. In that way entrepreneurship has a far better technological and economic climate to flourishing in. Training them abroad makes sense because the necessary educational infrastructure and qualified teachers exist there.

 

The University of South Africa have got satellite campuses all over South Africa, and they provide distance learning all over the world, as a matter of fact. This kind of infrastructure should be aggressively expanded all over Africa. All you need is a mailbox, and the address of the South African consulate in your capital where you write exams.

 

What is done in Africa towards this end, will obviouisly accelerate the process. Encouraging a Global Stewardship ethic will cost us all much effort and expense in the short term - but it will reap endless benefits for the world econonomy in the long term -to say nothing of bringing about world peace.

 

South Africa is ideally placed to provide this service. After all, Pretoria is the city after Washington with the most number of embassies and consulates in the World, and reciprocally, have got embassies and consulates in all the countries represented in Pretoria.

That's what we need.

 

There can be no question that South Africa is the base in which all efforts south of the equator should operate from. Another base needs to be established in the North. And perhaps one in Uganda.

[zee]

zee, countries may have been colonized because of greed, but which ex-colonies would you consider to be most successful after achieving their independence?

 

How do you define sucessful? How would you define independence?Do you include happiness and satisfaction in your definations?

[zee]

How do you define sucessful? How would you define independence?Do you include happiness and satisfaction in your definations?

If you look at the people in the third world they are not actually happy.People see these countries making progress but in reality this progress is at tthe expense of loosing their identity and conforming to a life style that they are forced to choose.The methods or the medicines or the crops they helped to develop ( which took them centuries) are now being patented by multinational corporations and they are being denied access to all these in the name of progress.

[zee]

Independence = remote control colonialism

 

People of the past colonies are not free.Independence is an illusion. they are not free to chose their policies for economy or education ,all these are dictated by the tools of the imperialists i.e. IMF, WTO and world bank( did I miss out on any other tools?).

[Eclogite]

If you look at the people in the third world they are not actually happy.

How much time have you spent in the Third World to allow you to make this definitive pronouncement?

[zee]

How much time have you spent in the Third World to allow you to make this definitive pronouncement?

I think I can say "more than you".

[Eclogite]

Well, gosh Zee, that's quite a claim. I am not sure how you have been able to determine how much time I have spent in the Third World. Perhaps you have gleaned snippets from a variety of my posts and added them all up. I am impressed. Very studious of you. Please do tell me then, how much time have I spent in the Third World? I am anxious to know the definitive figure. You must have it to be sure that you have spent more time than me.

 

By the way, you may well have done so. If you have lived in the Third World all your life, and are not still a teenager, then you would have. I simply asked you how long you had spent there in order to arrive at the absolute conclusion that people in the Third World were unhappy. Will you share that with us now?