What molded your beliefs from childhood to present

[wisdumn]

i was just wondering how other people learned and accepted their beliefs in life.

 

 

i was raised by my parents to believe the way i currently do(God,Jesus,the Bible) but ialways had a hard time accepting the dogma preachers through out of their pulpits and i never really liked conventional church(especially some of the songs and youth trips). i memorized Bible verses growing up but they never meant anything to me. eventually after high school i just thought all of the religious teachers throughout history(Muhammed,Buddah,Jesus) were all the same and that it was all nonsense. i was on the debate team in high school and always had a knack in the discussion and literary fields, so with the knowledge of some scripture and knowing how to debate i swayed MANY(regretfully) from knowing God. 2 yrs. ago i spoke with a guy who was actually a few years younger than me and we had a religious debate that lasted for about 3 hrs. i debated and he simply quoted scripture, at the end he gave me a copy of the Gospelof John and i stuck in my backpack, laughed and walked away. 3 or 4 months later i found that book buried beneath a lot of junk in my back pack and thought oh well, i'll read it(very sarcastically i might ad) i read it all in about an hour and a half and thsat book spoke to me like no other book had because about half way through it i couldn't fight anymore. i prayed and God revealed to me that i was trying to be God in my life. from that day forth things have drastically changed, not all at once mind you but gradually God has tought me how to not only read, but study and not only study but to put the Bible's teachings into effect by living by them. my life is truly different and better since that day 2 yrs. ago and i thank God for giving me a personal relationship with Him instead of just some religion.

[Uncle Martin]

I thought this would be an interesting aside to the normal god debates, but it seems I may have been wrong. Wisdumn, your previous posts tell me that this is some new tactic that the creationist camp has devised to "spread the word". Your above statements are so amazingly contrary to your other posts, please tell me the truth. This whole thing just appears very wrong, am I the only one to see this?

 

I will gladly share my current personal philosophy/world view and its development with all that are interested, if you can show me that your intent here is sincere.

[IrishEyes]

There is a camp? Geez, I missed the flyer on that!!!

 

Beyond not being invited to camp, I'd love to hear your current philosophy, and your past philosophies, Unc. And please include the development of the current one, as I love to learn how people got to where they are.

 

I'll share mine if you share yours...

[IrishEyes]

On another note, i'd like to add that I think this topic has some merit. I know that it is not scientific, but I personally don't think that makes the topic worthless. It has been posted to the P/H forum, so I don't feel it is in the wrong place. Anyone disagree?

 

While most of wisdumn's initial post above reads like a Christian testimony, it also adds some insight into his mind. Though some of you may not like the highly religious content, it does fit within the frame of the topic. I don't feel the initial post was at all misleading in relation to either the title or summary of the topic.

[Uncle Martin]

Irish, I would hope that anyone that has been reading these forums for the past few months would already know my worldview. As for my previous stance, you would have to have lived my life to truly understand,...if that is possible. I'm still grappling with that.

 

That "camp" is in your backyard,.. last I heard.

[IrishEyes]

Unc, I recall a discussion about the correct usage of 'atheist' and 'agnostic', and that you changed your stance slightly after that discussion.

 

I think it is fairly obvious that you hold no belief in any type of personal God.

 

However, what your previous belief/stance was - I haven't a clue.

 

Nor am I sure of what your 'worldview' is.

[IrishEyes]

I have noticed that you have become a lot more vocal, and - in my opinion - much more confrontational, lately. Is there a reason for the change, or are you just more comfortable now?

 

Also, you have alluded to your 'reason' for being at this site in other threads. Actually, when I went to quote the specific instance I distinctly recall, I noticed that you had edited that comment out of your post. I am wondering what your agenda is for these forums. Do they have anything to do with this topic - What molded your beliefs? - or is your agenda to remain hidden, or is it now becoming obvious?

 

Are you the product of FreeT's friends AI experiments???? LOL

[Uncle Martin]

This is getting way off topic, but what the hay, I am a moderator. I think the confrontational aspect has to do with the VERY limited time I now have as compared to my arrival here. I sadly don't have enough time, nor energy to be polite, and drag out that which can be said in a straight forward manner. Some of the standard arguments are getting to be quite redundant also!

 

The "reason" you speak of is one of MANY. And I may have exaggerated that at times to "stir the pot", so to speak. I have learned much here, from everyone. And I DO MEAN everyone. FT and I share much in common, we grew up just a few miles apart, both married religious southern girls, etc,... but I am not his experiment nor sidekick. I do have a great deal of respect for him, and all of the people that I have had discourse with in these forums. Just being able to have an intelligent debate has been very refreshing. Most of the folks in my neighborhood have too much chewing tobacco stuffed in their face for me to understand, as if they would have something I'd care to discuss.

 

The deletion you speak of is a mystery to me, please refresh my memory. As for how I came to my current stance,.... you will have a tough time with this, I have always felt this way. My parents taught religion, my earliest memories are of my questioning this. I think I was between 8 and 10 when I had finally figured out for sure that there was no god,....for now. And that is where I am still. FT helped me to define the correct term for how I have always thought, he did not change my original view. He has however taught me much. Please don't read more into it than is called for. The difference between an agnostic and an atheist was something I did not know, that type of thing. Accurate terminology, ring a bell?

[IrishEyes]

The deletion you speak of is a mystery to me, please refresh my memory.

 

It was in the Moderator forum. 07/22/2004 08:51 PM BECAME: Edited: 07/25/2004 at 06:18 PM by Uncle Martin

 

It was in a discussion about me and FreeT arguing, you said something about that being part of the reason you joined, and that more would become evident soon, or something like that. I can't remember exactly, I just know that i wanted to ask you specifically what you meant by the statement but when i went to quote it, it was gone. You had edited it away into oblivion. It was no more than two weeks ago, I think. If I recall, it was while Tormod was away on his last vacation, late July.

 

NOTE: The "edit" is from me adding the date/time stamp. The original post read "I'll go check for the post and let you know for sure.", but I decided to correct the post rather than just creating a new post.

[IrishEyes]

My parents taught religion, my earliest memories are of my questioning this.

 

Your parents taught what, specifically? Were they college professors? Sunday school teachers? Members of a clergy?

 

And I think it would be fitting for the topic if you could explain WHY your earliest memories are of "questioning this". Did you disagree with them on principle? Out of rebellion? Was the concept of GOD too much for your 8 year old mind to grasp? Or did it just ring false for you? Did you see a specific hypocrisy that soured you on religion? Were you "Turner-ized"?

 

I ask because there seems to me to be a big difference between 'questioning this' and "finally figured out for sure that there was no god". At 8 or 10 years old, please tell me how you came to this conclusion. I mean, at 25 I was still questioning, and in no way ready to make a definitive argument either way. How did you arrive there at age 10?

[IrishEyes]

I think the confrontational aspect has to do with the VERY limited time I now have as compared to my arrival here. I sadly don't have enough time, nor energy to be polite, and drag out that which can be said in a straight forward manner. Some of the standard arguments are getting to be quite redundant also!

 

Sorry to hear this, Unc. I also feel that I don't have near as much time as I did when i started posting here. However, I think that being polite should still be a goal. Of course, this is only my opinion, and it is not shared by all, as evidenced by the varied and various styles of posts found here.

 

And if YOU think that some of the standard arguments are getting to be redundant after only two and a half months, think how Tormod must feel!!!

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

It was in a discussion about me and FreeT arguing, you said something about that being part of the reason you joined, and that more would become evident soon, or something like that. I can't remember exactly, I just know that i wanted to ask you specifically what you meant by the statement but when i went to quote it, it was gone..

Yes, I know now of what you speak of. That was an intentional stirring of the pot. Seems to have worked out quite well. I can't remember exactly where I was going to take that, I do know it was not important.

[Uncle Martin]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Your parents taught what, specifically? Were they college professors? Sunday school teachers? Members of a clergy?

The intended meaning was that my parents taught their children, their views on religion.

And I think it would be fitting for the topic if you could explain WHY your earliest memories are of "questioning this". Did you disagree with them on principle? Out of rebellion? Was the concept of GOD too much for your 8 year old mind to grasp? Or did it just ring false for you? Did you see a specific hypocrisy that soured you on religion? Were you "Turner-ized"?

My 8 year old mind was able to grasp more reality than your current thirty something year old gray matter is. It just rang false. It had nothing to do with rebellion, it was the only logical reality.

 

 

 

I ask because there seems to me to be a big difference between 'questioning this' and "finally figured out for sure that there was no god". At 8 or 10 years old, please tell me how you came to this conclusion.

Reason and logic. Many in this forum have been trying to show you this, I don't see how I can be anymore successful at making you see that which you refuse to.

I mean, at 25 I was still questioning, and in no way ready to make a definitive argument either way.

A little slow on the uptake?

How did you arrive there at age 10?

Critical thinking, reason and logic. That likely doesn't answer your question, but it is all I have.

[IrishEyes]

I'm sorry, but your assertions just do not ring true for me.

 

You are asking us to believe that a 10 year old boy, raised in a religious family, probably educated in the US public school system, possessed enough "critical thinking, reason and logic" to determine that there is not a God?

 

Aside from your rather obvious and uncalled for insults, I'm trying to understand HOW you came to this conclusion at age 10.

 

Is 25 "slow on the uptake"? I don't think so. I was seriously questioning every "truth" I'd been taught, and trying to come to grips with a reality that made sense. I don't think I could have done anything like that at age 10. And certainly I would have continued to question things well past age 10, not just stuck with my age-10 assumptions, as you maintain you have done.

[Uncle Martin]

If I inadvertantly implied that I have maintained my "assumptions" since age ten, I apologize. That was not the intent. You must TRY to understand that I question everything, everyday. What I arrived at when I was younger, or yesterday, is open to revision. I have a clearer understanding everyday. My religious views have remained constant simply because there has been no better explanation presented. I am very sorry if you don't believe what I am telling you,...it is however true. OK,...25 is not slow, maybe ten is fast,...whatever.

 

I take a remark such as "more than your 8 year old mind could grasp" as an affront. I may have been mistaken, maybe you meant nothing insulting by that. If so,..I apologize for the returned insults.

[wisdumn]

you know i just realized that this thread was still up, i had not seen it on the forums so i thought i t had been removed, but since it hasn't- i started this thread to give a background of my life so that people knew what sort of person i am and why. i started it also to give others the opportunity to express their development in life, in regards to what Unc. M said about this being started to witness to people,that was hardly the intention, i just wanted to know what kind of views have been formed in others and why? instead, the first thing i see rolled out is an accusation from Unc.M which says very plainly to me " hi, i'm uncle martin and i really don't want to discuss what i believe or who i am as a person" if that's the case and i hope it's not but if it is then you are certainly not required to respond to my shameless ploy at witnessing. C'mon- in the schoolyard it's Irish and Unc.M going at it and i hear they've really taken off the gloves for this one.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

You are asking us to believe that a 10 year old boy, raised in a religious family, probably educated in the US public school system, possessed enough "critical thinking, reason and logic" to determine that there is not a God?

I was not sure just where to jump in, but this seems like a good spot.

 

As Unc had mentioned, he and I seem to share much in common in our personal history. Yes by 10 I was heavily into questioning the god myth I had been exclusively promoted with. For me it was a few more years before the tool needed to break out of irrational thought was presented to me. Or perhaps I should more accurately state before I was ALLOWED to break out. I had already developed a serious crack in the mythology of the theology I was raised in. But as seems to be the process, I was being re-indoctinated around that age of reason. St Augustine had commented that children need to be indoctrinated until they are 12. If the church can enforce it's dogma up to that age, it stands the best chance of it not being rejected by the maturing mind.

Aside from your rather obvious and uncalled for insults, I'm trying to understand HOW you came to this conclusion at age 10.

This is just an age at which we identify logic and structured thought. It is the age which we naturally question everything. At this point if outside influence does not suppress this natural desire to reason things out, the natural process of open evaluation of our reality steps in. If outside influence succesfully suppresses open thought, the child can be brainwashed into subservience for the rest of their life.

Is 25 "slow on the uptake"? I don't think so. I was seriously questioning every "truth" I'd been taught, and trying to come to grips with a reality that made sense. I don't think I could have done anything like that at age 10.

Perhaps it was your self stated inability at the appropriate point in your life (10 yrs) to develop open thinking that continues to stop you from adopting logic and reason as the primary thought process. Yes 25 IS "slow on the uptake".

And certainly I would have continued to question things well past age 10, not just stuck with my age-10 assumptions, as you maintain you have done.

It is funny to see you attack someone that opened their minds to questioning at age 10 while you admit you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest.