What molded your beliefs from childhood to present

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

you know i just realized that this thread was still up, i had not seen it on the forums so i thought i t had been removed, but since it hasn't-

Very few threads get removed. You are probably thinking that only the threads that appear on the home page are active ones. There are many many more waiting for you if you click

 

Hypography Forums »

 

below the Science Forums list.

 

And if you click on "My Forums' on the top of any Thread page, you will get a list of Forums you are active on.

 

Hope this helps.

[Tormod]

This discussion surprises me. Sorry to have missed it. I'm not used to see Irish and Unc go away at each other but frankly I think Irish began the overreacting and Unc hit back.

 

What's the problem with children at 8 realizing there is no God? Irish, you must have countless examples of the reverse scenario..."at 8 I realized my parents' atheist dogma was bollocks and I found Jesus" or something. I for sure have read things like that many times. One reason FT joined Hypo in the first place was because the site was FULL of creationists. Every single discussion here seemed to end up with someone arguing that "well, it still does not disprove God". In fact, before FT came about, religion popped up all over the place, mostly uncalled for, and ALWAYS pro-Christianity. I know a lot of people are mad at him for bringing religion into every little discussion on memory chips and mushrooms.

 

BUT Wiz's original post in this thread can be found, in different varieties, in some of our earlier posts. Often the all-out confessional is avoided, and instead slowly revealed through questions with obvious replies.

 

Some examples:

 

GOD

http://www.hypography.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=23&threadid=419&enterthread=y

 

Jesus - the son of God (Great one, this)

http://www.hypography.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=23&threadid=467&enterthread=y

 

The -1th Law (one of my old-time favorites...brings a recent CDxx to mind)

http://www.hypography.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=15&threadid=307&enterthread=y

 

...and of course our entire Evolution category...

[IrishEyes]

You guys crack me up!

 

Unc and I went away with each other? Wait til Mr. Irish hears about that!! Sorry, Tormod, I know you probably meant "went at each other" but the term you used was just awesome!!

 

As for it being me and unc rather than, say, possibly FreeT - what's so surprising? The main difference that I see is that while we may disagree, even get rather vocal with each other for a time, everything is resolved within the span of a few posts, and there are no negative feelings on my end. I seriously doubt Unc is still upset with me either, if he even was to begin with. Unc and I can discuss things, even disagree, and *I* always end up with a far greater respect for, and understanding of, him as a person than when I started.

 

Also, you'll notice that *we* stopped discussing this on 8/07, and it was dropped, as far as I was concerned. FreeT hadn't even entered it up to that point, surprisingly enough. That is why I didn't reply to him after his 8/17 post. As fun as it is for him to attack Christians (sorry, FreeT, but you DID say that), it's not always that fun to be the one attacked on a regular basis, with virtually every post that you compose. Stirring the pot isone thing, the unending offensive is quite another.

 

If you want me to , I'll reply to the rest of your post, Tormod. I do have more feelings about some other things you wrote. However, it will have to be later as kids are all out in the van waiting to go to the beach right now. Family first today, sorry guys!!

 

Enjoy the rest of your day and will try to catch up this wekend!!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

What's the problem with children at 8 realizing there is no God? Irish, you must have countless examples of the reverse scenario...

Why would she find a problem with someone deciding to agree with her? Of course she would find problems with kids significantly younger than her showing superior reasoning skills and being able to drop their addiction to antiquated superstition.

One reason FT joined Hypo in the first place was because the site was FULL of creationists.

<center></center>

 

Bringing some sunlight into the darkness of religious dogma. As Carl Sagan called it as part of his book title "The Demon-Haunted World: Science As a Candle in the Dark"

 

We don't see Hypog being swamped by Creationist nonsense anymore do we?

Every single discussion here seemed to end up with someone arguing that "well, it still does not disprove God".

We've put a stop to the incessant attempts to pretend fallacies have value, haven't we! Or at least dramatically cut down on them and provided an education as to why they are of no value and how to have a fact based discussion. I assume that is aprt of why this site exists in the first place.

 

Glad I could have a positive impact on that.

In fact, before FT came about, religion popped up all over the place, mostly uncalled for, and ALWAYS pro-Christianity.

Thank you, (bow) Thank you , (bow) Thank you...

I know a lot of people are mad at him for bringing religion into every little discussion on memory chips and mushrooms.

They are just mad because, as you indicate, it is not PRO Christianity.

BUT Wiz's original post in this thread can be found, in different varieties, in some of our earlier posts. Often the all-out confessional is avoided, and instead slowly revealed through questions with obvious replies.

Yes, it usually does not require an outright and extended admission to easily identify the M.O.

 

Shining my own little light in the darkness. (Waving my lit BIC back and forth in the air)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

As fun as it is for him to attack Christians (sorry, FreeT, but you DID say that)

Hey why apologize? But I do need to correct the assertion. I enjoy "attacking" (I consider it "Challenging" more than "attacking") ChristianITY. Christians are just poor deluded people. Attack the crime, not the criminal.

it's not always that fun to be the one attacked on a regular basis,

Try living as an Atheist in the US, surrounded by "Loving" Christian soldiers. We are blamed for 9/11 (while it was actually a example of a succesful "Faith Based Initiative"), floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, AIDS and everything else. God punishing the US for being too Secular and accepting of diversity because of Atheism. As was stated by one of our members at our recent FreeThought group meeting, "I just want people to stop automatically hating us when they find out we are Atheists." And it would be nice to be able to testify at your own trial or run for office.

Stirring the pot isone thing, the unending offensive is quite another.

Like I said, trying living as an open Atheist. We are the last closeted minority in the US.

Family first today, sorry guys!!

OK, but just today!

[IrishEyes]

Ok, FreeT, name calling ("Christians are just poor deluded people.") is ok, right?

 

And if I had used your same response style, I would have been red-herringed to death! I mean, really, what does it matter how difficult it is to live "as an Atheist in the US, surrounded by "Loving" Christian soldiers", whether or not you get "blamed for 9/11 (while it was actually a example of a succesful "Faith Based Initiative"), floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, AIDS and everything else". Were we discussing how difficult it is to live as an atheist in the US? NO NO NO NO NO!!! And just because a minority of the states do not allow atheists "to testify at your own trial or run for office", that really means nothing to the content of MY post. Stop trying to make the rest of us feel sorry for you, the poor picked on atheist in the big, bad US. I don't think anyone is buying that here anymore. It was good for a bit at first, but you have revealed way too much about yourself through your 1538 posts to garner much sympathy anymore.

 

You go on the offensive against Christians on a regular basis, even when their specific religious beliefs have no impact on the discussion at hand. You don't attack only Christianity. I've said that in another thread. If it was only the religion, that would be one thing. But you continually bash Christians at every opportunity. I don't think there is a single negative remark that you can make that is somehow not related to being a Christian. You do not differentiate the religion from the followers of the religion. It's not "Christianity is bad", but "Typical Christian behaviour" where the indicated behaviour is *obviously* (to you) negative.

[IrishEyes]

08/17/2004 01:22 PM - FreeT

It is funny to see you attack someone that opened their minds to questioning at age 10 while you admit you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest.

 

PLEASE show where I ever said that I held on to my beliefs from birth to age 25? Oh wait... I NEVER SAID THAT!! You READ WHAT YOU WANTED TO READ. You must be a CHRISTIAN now, as that is something only *they* typically do.

 

The conversation actually went more like:

 

08/07/2004 01:50 AM - Irish

I mean, at 25 I was still questioning, and in no way ready to make a definitive argument either way.

 

08/07/2004 07:34 AM - Unc

A little slow on the uptake?

 

08/07/2004 11:39 AM - Irish

Is 25 "slow on the uptake"? I don't think so. I was seriously questioning every "truth" I'd been taught, and trying to come to grips with a reality that made sense. I don't think I could have done anything like that at age 10. And certainly I would have continued to question things well past age 10, not just stuck with my age-10 assumptions, as you maintain you have done.

 

So how does that equate to :

08/17/2004 01:22 PM - FreeT

you admit you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest.

[wisdumn]

i was just noticing that this thread has strayed a good bit from topic so let's talk about things that have molded our beliefs. maybe we can even get into some specific areas where we noticed major changes in our lives ro that we felt heavily impacted. thanx- wisdumn

[IrishEyes]

Topic Title: what molded your beliefs from childhood to present

Topic Summary: how we learned what we believe as truth

 

Ok, since wisdumn wants us to get back on topic in his thread, I'll try.

 

What molded my beliefs? Any number of things. My mother was raised in a Southern Baptist home in the South, mainly in Louisiana and Oklahoma. Her parents were very strict with her and her two older sisters, and insisted they go to church, though my grandparents often dropped them off there (though I didn't learn that until recently!). My mom was, by her own admission, 'saved' as a teenager, and as a Baptist, believed it was an eternal salvation. She strayed far from church many times in her life, especially after having me and then 3 years later my brother. Depending on who her husband was, we either attended church religiously, or not at all. We also moved quite a bit. She usually didn't care where I went to church, as long as I was there on Sunday, and she was very serious about me finding my own way...most of the time.

I tried : several varieties of Baptist, Catholocism, Episcopalian, Pentecostal, Jehovah's Witness, Judaism, and Non-denominational as a youngster.

I went to church camp a few summers, because it was away from home, in the mountains, and filled with other kids. Sometimes I had very spiritual experiences, sometimes I enjoyed flirting with boys. Always I had fun escaping the craziness of my 'normal' life.

Mom was married and divorced more times than there are days of the week. You do the math, I did the therapy. I thought she was a huge hypocrit, as she'd usually get married in a church, and be divorced within a year or two. Very discouraging for a child trying to find out who she is. We didn't have a stable home, a stable church, or even a stable denomination. We moved every 6-12 months, I went to over 25 schools in 13 years. Rather traumatic at times, but also great fun if you like to re-invent yourself often, as I did.

In high school I gave up on the whole idea of God. I thought it was a crock, basically because my life was really screwed up and I wanted to be able to say that if there *was* a God, surely things couldn't have gotten so bad in such a short amount of time. I considered myself agnostic, loosely defining my 'beliefs' as "I think there may be something out there in charge, but I doubt very seriously it has anything to do with that idiot they talk about in the Bible". In my senior year, I took a lot of classes at my 'local' college, UNLV, and was introduced to philosophy. A far cry from my usual poli-sci courses, philosophy , and then psychology, opened doors that were at once frightening and fascinating. Questioning why we are here led to trying to figure out where we came from in a serious way, which of course led to questioning all of the 'Bible' stories I was taught as a child but had walked away from as a teen. Exposure to some 'hard-core' atheists was incredible, though I now feel that they were just as faithful to their beliefs as I now am to mine. I was introduced to ideas that really intrigued me, like evolution and abiogenesis. I adopted most of what I was taught without doing much in-depth research on my own. I really just wanted to be able to prove that God was a hoax, and my new friends were very accomodating in that regard.

School stopped when the money did, and I joined the navy. My first nine months found me in navy school in Florida, in a serious relationship with an atheist who later became my husband, and not speaking to any of my family. A marriage, pregnancy and childbirth later, and something weird started happening. I can remember looking at my daughter, the most incredibly beautiful child that has EVER been born (I dare you to prove me wrong!!), and thinking that it just wasn't possible that she was the product of millions of years of evolution. She was just so PERFECT!! I promise you, the first time I ever laid eyes on her, the heavens opened up and the angels sang.

So I started re-examining why I stopped believing in God. After

[wisdumn]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Extraordinarily long quote chopped by Tormod because it is posted above

 

thank you irish, that was a very in depth and personal view of your life and i am appreciative and thankful for the work that has been done in your life(God bless) i like the last paragraph about not hating others that don't agree with your views, i've often noticed since i've been a follower of Christ that it's often others that are truly judgmental and hate me for my views yet they are the same ones quick to quote a minute section of scripture such as " judge not lest ye be judged "  but of these things i'm not surprised because like Christ said in the Bible to not be surprised when the world hates you because it had hated him first and the world hates truth. anyway, not trying to stray but just wanted to say thanks and i'll post more about my moldings later

[Yvonne]

What was the last drop in my loss of faith, was the fact that the people around me who I knew were devoted christians never behaved as such. They actually talked badly of non-christians, of other people, and discriminated. Of course there are good and kind christians as well, but these are the ones who made me question my faith - and I found it wasn't there. As simply and difficult as that.

[wisdumn]

Originally posted by: Yvonne

What was the last drop in my loss of faith, was the fact that the people around me who I knew were devoted christians never behaved as such. They actually talked badly of non-christians, of other people, and discriminated. Of course there are good and kind christians as well, but these are the ones who made me question my faith - and I found it wasn't there. As simply and difficult as that.

 

it's too bad when a good idea has bad followers to corrupt it. i'd like to ask a question, did those certain people make you lose your faith in God or in christians?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Ok, FreeT, name calling ("Christians are just poor deluded people.") is ok, right?

On a par with "Christian's aren't perfect, just forgiven". But from the other direction.

 

When in Rome...

You go on the offensive against Christians on a regular basis, even when their specific religious beliefs have no impact on the discussion at hand.

Were that the truth, I would not have been so accurate in guessing the religious leanings of posters based on "their specific religious beliefs (that do) have () impact on the discussion at hand". Nor would they be so accurately parrotting dogmatic Christian sources.

You don't attack only Christianity.

That is correct. I *attack* psudeoscience and irrational, illogical approaches to any subject from any and all comers.

I've said that in another thread. If it was only the religion, that would be one thing.

True. And it is obvious from it's historical reality that it has tried thru any and every method to make it the only religion, including the slaughter of millions and the promotion of forced ignorance thru torture. But yes it has been an unscuccesful attempt.

I don't think there is a single negative remark that you can make that is somehow not related to being a Christian.

Very perceptive of you. Yes, just about any negative attribute anyone could come up with can easily be associated with Christianity. I'm just suprised that you would acknowledge it so openly.

You do not differentiate the religion from the followers of the religion.

Hmmm, if someone bases their POV on their religion, where else would the differentiation come from? The bible says Christians should kill "other" believers. Christians kill "other" believers... At what point would a differentiation become valid?

It's not "Christianity is bad",

Oh yes it is! And I never hesitate to state it.

but "Typical Christian behaviour" where the indicated behaviour is *obviously* (to you) negative.

As I have proven many time. Read the bible. It is filled with the promotion to hate and kill. To promote ignorance. Thus when a person does such and identifies themselves with Christianity along the way, it DOES become "Typical Christian behaviour". Why does pointing out the obvious bother you?

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

08/17/2004 01:22 PM - FreeT

 

It is funny to see you attack someone that opened their minds to questioning at age 10 while you admit you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest.

PLEASE show where I ever said that I held on to my beliefs from birth to age 25? Oh wait... I NEVER SAID THAT!! You READ WHAT YOU WANTED TO READ. You must be a CHRISTIAN now, as that is something only *they* typically do.

Well you do seem to be catching on. As you yourself then quote your actually saying it.

08/07/2004 01:50 AM - Irish

 

I mean, at 25 I was still questioning, and in no way ready to make a definitive argument either way.

 

08/07/2004 11:39 AM - Irish

 

Is 25 "slow on the uptake"? I don't think so.... I don't think I could have done anything like that at age 10.

OK, you had stated on previous threads that you were born into a Christian family, raised Christian and now ...

 

1) "at 25 I was"

 

Thus 25 IS established

 

2) " in no way ready to make a definitive argument either way"

 

and further

 

3) "I don't think I could have done anything like that at age 10"

 

thus "you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest".

 

And yes as I said, you are catching on... to how Christians "READ WHAT YOU WANTED TO READ", just as you acknowledged above.

 

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

So how does that equate to :

 

08/17/2004 01:22 PM - FreeT

 

you admit you held on to your beliefs from birth till 25 at the earliest.

The specifics are delineated above. Based on YOUR OWN POSTS.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Topic Title: what molded your beliefs from childhood to present Topic Summary: how we learned what we ....

 

thank you irish, that was a very in depth ...

Originally posted by: wisdumn

Originally posted by: Yvonne

What was the last drop in my loss of faith,....

it's too bad when a good idea has bad followers to corrupt it. i'd like to ask a question, did those certain people make you lose your faith in God or in christians?

 

wisdumn, when quoting others, please do not use the entire other quote. Just specific texts that is enough to allow others to identify where the full text is or get a specific idea across. Would you please go back and edit your posts, especially your reply to Irish, to bring it down to a managable size.

 

Thanks for helping to keep thread length managable.

 

(Ya that from "Mr Hypopathic", I know...)

[Yvonne]

FT: They made me think. Which then made me realise I didn't believe in God. I have no problem with christians as long as they have no problem with me. I see my self as a generally good person, accountable for my own actions to my self first, and of course to the law.

 

...

I guess I have to continue later when I don't have a one year old trying to take the computer apart with me.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: wisdumn

...let's talk about things that have molded our beliefs. maybe we can even get into some specific areas where we noticed major changes in our lives ro that we felt heavily impacted...

(1st, note how I reduced your post to specifics)

 

OK, my DEconversion story, or some parts.

 

Born into a Catholic family in a Catholic suburb. One set of kids I grew up with was Luthern and when I found out, I couldn't even understand what that meant. All I knew was Catholic and anything else was evil and probably Christ Killers. Started doing the Altar Boy thing. Fortunately not one of the many child predator Priests in my church. Had "religious experiences" at both my 1st Confession and Communion. Would kick kids out of my yard that swore too much. 2-8th grade Parochial school. Suffered all the physical punishment Nuns are known for. Kuckles and head hit with "pointers" and yard sticks. Head bounced off the walls. Slapped regularly for things like not walking in-line quitely enough going to lunch.

 

But by 10 I was seriously questioning the whole thing. As I started to think for myself, it just obviously did not make sense. But I was also starting to be re-brainwashed at the same time. Then Vatican II hit! Thank god! :-)

 

7th grade. The Nun was explaining to us about how, based on the NEW eternal truths, perhaps things in the bible were not literal. Not that we were exposed to the bible anyway. But "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" now included such examples as perhaps the "Parting of the Red Sea" was just a marsh drying up (The REED Sea story). OK! if it is OK to question....

 

The whole house of cards collapsed before my eyes. I was not stupid for not believing. It was in fact my curiosity that was correct. Not their attack against it. By 9th grade (in public school) I was well on my way to being a deconvert. Soon after I learned that there was this thing called Atheism, I found I was one. Most of my friends didn't care one way or other. I was pissed that I/ WE had been lied to all that time! Those friends that still wanted to actively believe at first got upset that they could not stand up to my questions and facts. Then they stopped talking to me. They said it made them question it too much themselves.

 

By High School I had started down the path of logic and reason without any formal exposure to it. Naturally my religious schooling would not have exposed me to Critical Thought or even admitting such existed. Then my more liberal uncle/ aunt introduced me to critical thought by giving my a subscription to "Psychology Today" (when it was a respected mag). I read an article by BF Skinner. Opened my eyes! Then read "Walden II" and "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" (both Skinner). I was hooked. WHo knew a peson could actually THINK? (OK, not strictly Skinnerian) Sure was not what I was taught in Catholic School! As I was heavily into Sci-fi books by then, started into Issac Asimov's Science Fact books as well! WOW! KNOWLEDGE. FACTS, SCIENCE! Where had they been hiding? But I was alone in my philosophy as far as I knew. No one else I "hung with" expressed any inerest in such esoteric pursuits. Till college of course! But that was Tech College and so Philosophy was not a formal part of classes.

 

Then I moved to the Atlanta area. I had no idea just how big of a biz suckering money outta believers was! Mega churches with busses hauling people from all over. As a Catholic you went to the Church you were assigned. Had no idea of Church Shopping! Of looking for a church that agreed with how you wanted to live by finding selective biblical passages to promote that idea enough to seperate you from your money! I had a great time working over the Youth Outreach Ministers that visited me regularly. One by one, they'd stop by, chat for a while. By the time I had each so painted in a corner, they'd schedule a time to come back with their bosses that could for sure answer my questions/ overcome m