Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?

[Buffy]

rand?

Ayn. Most people will point you to her "big idea" book, Atlas Shrugged http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451191145, but I prefer The Fountainhead http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451191153 which exposes more of how her concepts of "egoism" affect interpersonal relationships. Her ideas on "objectivism"--which could be summed up by the title of one of her other books The Virtue of Selfishness http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451163931--split her fan base, but she's still one of the most important writers of the 20th century, no matter what you think of her opinions.

 

I didn't come for your sake. I came for mine. :eek_big:

Buffy

[TheBigDog]

Ayn. Most people will point you to her "big idea" book, Atlas Shrugged, but I prefer The Fountainhead which exposes more of how her concepts of "egoism" affect interpersonal relationships. Her ideas on "objectivism"--which could be summed up by the title of one of her other books The Virtue of Selfishness--split her fan base, but she's still one of the most important writers of the 20th century, no matter what you think of her opinions.

 

I didn't come for your sake. I came for mine. :eek_big:

Buffy

If you want to start on the lighter side of Ayn begin with "We the Living". It helps to illustrate the events in her life that helped to form her ideas. Not an autobiography, but close.

 

Bill

[TheFaithfulStone]

See, I read "Anthem" and thought

 

This is a really important book!

 

And so I went and picked up a bunch of other Ayn Rand books.

 

In particular The Fountainhead. Then I said.

 

I want to be Howard Roark!

 

Then I went to went to college, etc, etc...

 

And one day I woke up and realized that I was just like Howard Roark, and everyone thought I was an insufferable ***.

 

So I re-read The Fountainhead, and thought - "She can't really be advocating that can she? Seriously - 'Screw the world, I'll get mine, because I know better!' That's a scary way to live. What if I don't."

 

It is of interest to note that at the same time I was reading The Infancy Gospel of Thomas - easily some of the more trippy apocrypha, and so I was willing to accept that I might "know" some things that were just plain wrong.

 

Then I thought "Well who the hell defines 'objective' and what happens when selfish, brilliant people rule the world? And wouldn't it just fall back to the rule of the selfish and brutal?" Then my head exploded. Then I took my dogeared copy of The Fountainhead down to the local used book store, cashed it in for fifty cents, and laughed all the way to the Coke Machine. SUCKERS.

 

And all because I realized I would rather be like Jesus than Frank Lloyd Wright, who Ayn Rand REALLY wants to sleep with.

 

Life is pretty wierd, no?

 

TFS

[Buffy]

So I re-read The Fountainhead, and thought - "She can't really be advocating that can she? Seriously - 'Screw the world, I'll get mine, because I know better!' That's a scary way to live. What if I don't."

That was exactly my reaction.... To this day I still prefer to believe that it was all a *big joke* on all her followers, but in fact I guess not. If Big can come away from believing in Objectivism without the horrid cynical attitude that seems to be more typical, then maybe its not *quite* as bad as Scientology! :eek:

 

I still strongly recommend people read her stuff, but tell them to assume that the conclusions to be drawn are exactly the *opposite* of Objectivism. I think from a literary viewpoint, that's actually a completely justifiable conclusion...

 

Who is John Galt, and why should I care? ;)

Buffy

[Qfwfq]

I grew up literally trained to be overgenerous, no, worse, totally passive and egoless, li'l me don't deserve nothin' that others do. The times I wanted something and insisted, I felt as if I was being real greedy and selfish. I was accustomed to just doing what I was told and not complaining, in the family and so that's how I did elsewhere too.

 

During my youth I was usually giving what I could and being helpful when I could, even when I could hardly afford it. I began to have a lot of friends who esteemed and trusted me, and some good friends too. I also had the tendency to let myself be taken advantage of, including by pseudo-generous people, and I soon had to put a stop to that and start trying to build a future for myself. Currently I can't be generous at all, I don't see old friends very often but some are quite pleased when I can show up. If anyone offers me anything and it seems simply because they care, I gladly accept and don't worry about retribution, but if I can see there is something behind it then I avoid it to prevent their intentions, in medio stat virtus...

 

And a rock feels no pain;

And an island never cries.

[inside the sun]

i've noticed for the most part, at least in my family. the generous ones are middle class if not poor, and the up-tight people are the rich ones. Not to generalize the world, but im my family that's mainly how it goes.

Except of course sometimes the rich will be generous, but that's when the strings come and you better make sure you do everything in you're power to show them you appreciate it. And even when you do, you still get those threats. "now if you do this, i'll take it back." (except not so vague) but you get the point...

as for this rand, i must look into it, and i must start reading again, i have a library that i created while in Eureka, and i havent read in awhile.

freud, jung, einstein, rimbaund, and a little hunter s thomspon just to throw you off.

[TheBigDog]

To this day I still prefer to believe that it was all a *big joke* on all her followers, but in fact I guess not. If Big can come away from believing in Objectivism without the horrid cynical attitude that seems to be more typical, then maybe its not *quite* as bad as Scientology! :)

 

I still strongly recommend people read her stuff, but tell them to assume that the conclusions to be drawn are exactly the *opposite* of Objectivism. I think from a literary viewpoint, that's actually a completely justifiable conclusion...

 

Who is John Galt, and why should I care? :hihi:

Buffy

There is threads of wisdom to be gathered from all things in life. Read The Fountainhead again, and instead of following the exploits of Roark, look at the character of Toohey. Then look at TV and newspapers and tell me if Ayn wasn't onto a thread of truth, if not in her protagonist, at least in her antagonist.

 

I will add to my "someday" list a thread for discussing objectivism.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

I will add to my "someday" list a thread for discussing objectivism.

[sarcasm] Oooh. I'm so in on that. I've long been accused by my past girlfriends of objectifying women. It'd be nice to hear some science on this. :) [/sarcasm]

[Buffy]

There is threads of wisdom to be gathered from all things in life.

Of course there are, silly! Whats yer point?

Read The Fountainhead again, and instead of following the exploits of Roark, look at the character of Toohey.

Surprise! My English teacher in high school was very amused when I wrote an essay on Toohey: "Everyone writes about Roark, and I think he's got a rod up his rear end and is boring to boot!" she said with a smile!

Then look at TV and newspapers and tell me if Ayn wasn't onto a thread of truth, if not in her protagonist, at least in her antagonist.

You're being defensive! The real issue that most have with Objectivism is not that it does a good job of explaining people like Tom DeLay, but the argument--which I argue is promulgated by her followers to a much more extreme level than Ayn ever really did--that *every* human action is motivated by self-interest, and that altruism *does not exist*. Yes, I do think its reasonable to rail against that, especially when it ends up encouraging some of the "everyone is just out to screw me, so why should I bother being nice to anyone" attitudes expressed above, or even the "the only reason there are morals is that God gave them to us" which is the same bad attitude turned into a divisive group dynamic.

 

Sure, you can try to find greed in Mother Teresa, but its not much different than Now's excuses that he's never paid for sex... :confused:

 

Why don't you tell me what you think of me, :rolleyes:

Buffy

[Boerseun]

Looking a gift horse in the mouth isn't such a bad idea after all. Especially if the horse stands about three stories high and you received it from a bunch of Greeks.

Better look it in the mouth before you let it through your gates.

[Qfwfq]

Perhaps the Trojans did, but they needed to look it in the belly!!!!

[InfiniteNow]

Sure, you can try to find greed in Mother Teresa, but its not much different than Now's excuses that he's never paid for sex... :confused:

You're like a bloody hall monitor, lady! I can't make one sexist, chauvenistic joke without you jumping on top of me!

 

 

Hmmm... wait a minute... maybe that's not such a bad thing. :)

 

 

 

When did I say I'd never paid for sex? :xparty:

[BluesMan]

I am always amazed at enlighten moments.

 

A friend spent many years finding the right meditation bowl, he finally found the right one someplace in Africa or Asia (don't remember the country or continent). It was the right size, tone, weight and I could just see how happy he was when he showed me and produced a beautiful tone with it.

I was sincerely amazed at the quality of the bowl and told him.

 

He handed it to me and said, "Here, it is my gift to you"

In the years that have passed, I realized the gift was not only the bowl, but also the lesson of giving. It was hard at first, however I have never regretted giving away my most prized possessions when asked or timing dictated since.

 

Thanks Tim - Love ya Bro.

[Buffy]

You're like a bloody hall monitor, lady! I can't make one sexist, chauvenistic joke without you jumping on top of me!

50 demerits! Next time I pull out my ruler for your knuckles!

When did I say I'd never paid for sex? :Guns:

You're just such an easy whipping boy, Now! I guess you'll just have to get used to it huh? :confused: Or you could act like a proper and polite young man... :shrug: "Never!" :xparty:

 

Your regular teacher Sister Rosetta Stone is on a small vacation, :)

Sister Mary Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Next time I pull out my ruler for your knuckles!

I refer you now to the Discussion on kung fu thread where I describe my training. I'm ready for your catholic school girl routine, and welcome the ruler for both it's measurement and disciplinary qualities.

 

 

Cheers. :confused:

[Buffy]

I refer you now to the Discussion on kung fu thread where I describe my training.

So, ya like to beat up on Nuns, huh? That explains a thing or two! :)

 

Resolved: Women are more likely to look a gift horse in the mouth because they're smarter than men! Discuss.

 

Don't let testosterone poisoning cloud your thinking. Bring maps, :confused:

Buffy

[Qfwfq]

Interesting, but if they were looking for the analogy to 'hysteria', wouldn't it have been more clever to say 'testosteria'?