Illegal Immigration

[Buffy]

Did you hear anything? Hmmm, maybe not.... :love:

 

"Verdict first, trial afterwards!"

 

Off with her head!

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Booo... Booo... Booo....

 

Your true love lives. And you marry another. True Love saved her in the Fire Swamp, and she treated it like garbage. And that's what she is, the Queen of Refuse. So bow down to her if you want, bow to her. Bow to the Queen of Slime, the Queen of Filth, the Queen of Putrescence. Boo. Boo. Rubbish. Filth. Slime. Muck. Boo. Boo. Boo.

[InfiniteNow]

Okay, that last post had no bearing on this thread. My bad.

 

Why do we protect our borders so fiercely? While some may call me a dreamer, I'm not the only one, and we should recognize we share the planet... we will forever have more in common than difference.

[Buffy]

[puts Economist hat on]

Immigration is good. It allows for more efficient labor markets. It allows for faster economic growth with a much lower risk of rampant inflation.

 

Illegal immigration is bad: if immigration is limited far below demand, you will end up with the immigrants moving the money they earn *out* of our own economy and it will avoid being taxed.

 

Temporary visas are bad: We spend the money on training the temporary workers and then we send all that training back across the border when their visas run out.

 

[puts Sociologists hat on]

 

Communications and transportation are eliminating *cultural* barriers. They have for years. Californians are invading Idaho and Eastern Washington and diluting the bigot brigade there that is already a minority. Boy are they pissed. National barriers are crumbling too. Are you mad about Mexicans coming across the border? What about ownership of US corporations that is going offshore thanks to a *conservative* government.

 

There are no borders any more. Get over it.

 

We don't need no steeking visas!

Buffy Villa

[Buffy]

Oh I *love* that movie! :love:

 

They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Maybe we could call the Brute Squad to assist us on this freakishly overwhelming border issue about which everyone is so concerned.

 

*Get out of here or I'll call the Brute Squad!

 

#I'm on the Brute Squad.

 

<looks him up and down>

*You ARE the Brute Squad.

[soulatom]

I should go on a Seattle Style Rampage!! :rolleyes:

 

I should be seeing solutions...???

 

 

This is a heavily loaded issue, which is not going to go away.

It is global in extent.

Much of Europe is also struggling with it.

As the numbers grow, the political fall-out in the future looms large.

 

The economic argument for banning illegal immigration is simple enough.

 

It takes away jobs from legal residents and over-loads the infrastructure with aliens who pay no taxes for its upkeep.

Building walls and campaigning for more police to patrol the border is the current American government policy.

Amnesty, which was first granted in the late 1980's is up for review again. It has the advantage of registering aliens in the tax base.

 

The moral argument is more complex.

 

If there was no work at all, Mexicans would not come in the first place. And what's the difference in a Mexican working here, are they too not trying to earn a decent living?

They take the most menial jobs at below the legal wage.

Forced repatriation splits families who have children born on American soil and are therefore legal citizens.

By not making a big issue out of it, America retains goodwill with a close neighbor.

 

Question 1. Is it morally right to deny work to impoverished neighbors?

Question 2. Is the current policing policy the right approach?

Question 3. Is amnesty the right answer?

Question 5. If none of the above are right, what other suggestions are out there?

[InfiniteNow]

Question 5. If none of the above are right, what other suggestions are out there?

My question is this: What's question #4? :cup:

[pgrmdave]

Illegal doesn't mean immoral, so don't try to equate the two. Why shouldn't we just make it insanely easy to come legally?

 

Is it the United States Responsibility to provide Mexicans with jobs and social services?? No thats the responsibility of the Mexican Gov't!

They obviously need to be doing more! not U.S. doing more.

 

Actually, it's the responsibility of the free market, not the government. Reread the Constitution, it's not in there.

 

However hardworking illegal immigrants are when they come here, the moment they become citizens, they will be immediately demagogued by Democrats into viewing welfare as a universal human right, just as they now view living in America.

 

Prove it or admit that there is no basis for this statement.

 

 

Many of our ancestors came here looking for work. There's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't work outside the system, we should provide an easy way for them to become citizens, so that they can become a part of this great nation.

 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

 

These are the people we should want to come here. We should desire those who no other country wants, because we know that all men and women are created equal, and deserve equal rights, liberties, and freedoms - no matter where they were born.

[InfiniteNow]

Whatever dream world you're living in, I want to illegally live there too pgrmdave :cup:

...

Prove it? --- (actually lets see you disprove it.. its part of the article.. its a theory, one that could be tested if this goes through)

Sorry Rac, you should know by now that this is not how it works. You made the claim, you provide the support.

[InfiniteNow]

Please lets not begin again InfiniteNow.. You can live in a fantasy world too. :)

Its part of the article!

 

So, Poor Mexicans wouldn't try and sign up for and receive welfare if they could?

The statement is hypothetical, and not unrealistic at that.

 

What about the other points?

Answer the questions posed to you already, then we'll move on to your "other points."

 

:cup:

[TheBigDog]

Rac, I would suggest you go back and edit your post to put the excerp from Anne's article in quotes. It appears now to be your own statement, and thus the need to personally back it up. She is a professional political writer and is held to a different standard of proof than might be required here.

 

Bill

[Cedars]

Illegal doesn't mean immoral, so don't try to equate the two. Why shouldn't we just make it insanely easy to come legally?

 

Many of our ancestors came here looking for work. There's nothing wrong with that. They shouldn't work outside the system, we should provide an easy way for them to become citizens, so that they can become a part of this great nation.

 

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

 

These are the people we should want to come here. We should desire those who no other country wants, because we know that all men and women are created equal, and deserve equal rights, liberties, and freedoms - no matter where they were born.

 

Why in the world do you think we should make it easy for them to become citizens? Just a reminder, the "give me your tired...." is an inscription on the bottom of a statue created by the french on their own, as a gift and has no bearing on the laws of the land it is displayed on. The opinion that we have any obligation to import to america, anyone who so desires, diminishes where the real effort should be, and that is in making each and every country desireable to live in on their own merits, by diplomatically trying to ensure the freedoms and rights we have, in all other countries. Lets send them back to Mexico and let them put pressure on their government for reform. It is an elected government in Mexico, not a brutal dicatorship or tyranny.

 

Economic reasons for coming here are available for people to apply for legally. Its not like foriegn workers cannot apply so there are legal methods available.

 

No we should not reward those who have violated the laws of this land for profit driven reasons by accepting them into the citizenship of this nation. Let them go thru the existing channels for that opportunity.

[pgrmdave]

Illegal does not equal immoral? we should make it "insanely" easy?

(come on over terrorists, mafia, criminals, TB & AIDS infected peoples of the world )

 

I'll concede that the "insanely" easy was hyperbole, I merely meant that it should be simple and easy. I have no problem with keeping out known dangerous criminals (although it does depend on the crime - if it's not a crime here, it shouldn't be considered) or those with dangerous infectious diseases (although I wouldn't keep out those with dangerous non-infectious diseases, like cancer, diabetes, genetic disorders, because I don't value American life over foreign life). I will concede that I was too strongly worded, and too vaguely worded in my previous post.

 

However, I don't understand how people automatically assume that illegal means immoral. Speeding is illegal, would you really argue that it's immoral? As we've seen in the flag discussions, there are many illegal uses of the flag, does that mean that they are immoral? What makes every person who comes here in search of a better life without following the proper bureaucratic procedures immoral? Does that mean that if we took the laws away they'd become more moral somehow? What makes the difference? I will agree that there is a portion of the illegal population which is dangerous, and which uses its illegality to perpetrate criminal activities, but I do not think that it is productive, or desirable to punish the whole for the crimes of the few.

[pgrmdave]

Is prgrmdave and others actually looking at the future of such unrestricted and "insanely" easy immigration??

 

Including: environmental erosion, traffic gridlock, class-room sizes, infectious disease, wages, health care costs, welfare costs, Terrorism!, racial unrest between warring factions of immigrants, Crime!, gangs, drugs, prisons.. etc.. etc...

 

That's part of the beauty of it - would you move to a nation like that? Of course not, and neither would anybody else. Immigration stops when the reasons for immigration are removed, and immigration itself erodes the reasons. I don't think that it would make a better life for me. In fact, I will agree that it would make a worse life for me. But I don't think that I am the most important person in the world, nor do I think that anybody can make that claim. Or any group of people. Or any nation. I believe that everybody in the world deserves the best life they can make for themselves, even if it hurts my life. I would rather be middle class with neighbors in the middle class than be rich with impoverished neighbors, like the US is with Mexico.

[IDMclean]

The oldest trick in the book, the Pie and Run.

 

How can immagration be illegal if you live on the planet earth? I move from x spot to y spot on my home planet. Concidering it is my planet, I don't see how it's truely illegal...

 

Stupid little immaginary lines...

 

Also, remember Equilibrium applies here. Right now we have artifical walls in place, so the pressure builds on one side or the other. if you remove these walls, then the pressure will equal out.

 

-Damn! it's hard to run in clown shoes...:edizzy: :Clown: :confused:

KickAssClown

[pgrmdave]

Racoon, why do you limit your scope to America? Why try only to look to America's best interest, and not the world's? Note that this is not an attack, I'm merely trying to help you look at it from a different perspective. Whether or not you end up agreeing with me is unimportant, but I get the feeling from you that you don't respect my thoughts on the subject.