Will World Peace Occur??

[MagnetMan]

Very true MagnetMan. When we remove all the ethnic BS. Of course, that ethnic BS is tied to racial BS, national BS, tribal BS, religious BS, linguistic BS, and cultural BS. Ethnic is the very definition of these items.

 

While it is the Ethnic BS that separates us, and indeed is the most common cause of our conflicts, it is also how we see ourselves as "Special". Ethnic differences can never be removed without removing what makes us human.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but, according to this separatist rational of yours, racism, jingoism, totemism and religious bigotry are all essential human values that make us "special" and that we should keep murdering each other in order to maintain the illusion of that brutish individuality- and the common family values of brotherly love, sharing work and resopurces, extended-family kindliness, reverence for our common ancestors and mutual respect for the home planet we all share, should be shelved in favor of the BS?

 

Family

I have complete and utter respect for the wisdom and intelligence of my mother. If she were placed in charge of the world government today, the world would be a better place instantly.

 

The complete opposite is true of my father or step father. I would fight, and fight hard to prevent a world from being run by the likes of either of these men.

 

I am beginning to wonder about the underlying reasons for your hawkish stance Kayra. Family values are inextricably tied to filial piety. Both parents must be loved and respected unconditionally - for without both you would not exist. You have every right to disapprove of their behavior, but dare not hate their souls.

My father was a war hero and my mother an alchoholic who neglected her parental duties. They are long dead, but I hope one day to be lovingly reunited.

 

Do you think you will get peace?

 

Absolutely!

[Kayra]

Correct me if I am wrong, but, according to this separatist rational of yours, racism, jingoism, totemism and religious bigotry are all essential human values that make us "special" and that we should keep murdering each other in order to maintain the illusion of that brutish individuality- and the common family values of brotherly love, sharing work and resopurces, extended-family kindliness, reverence for our common ancestors and mutual respect for the home planet we all share, should be shelved in favor of the BS?

 

Consider yourself corrected. Nice try though.

You spoke of the removal or ethnic BS.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+ethnic&meta=

You appear to be stating that ethnic differences are the cause of strife, and so should be removed.

I am saying that ethnic (as defined in the link provided) differences are essential. That I would not want to see a world where there were no ethnic differences, but instead, vastly greater tolerance for those differences.

 

It is very quaint how you try to make it appear that I encourage racism, jingoism, totemism and religious bigotry simply because I consider ethnic diversity to be an important aspect of humanity. A quaint, but ultimately transparent redirection away from the fact that I showed that your argument had no bases in fact. Simply more rhetoric without substance.

 

 

I am beginning to wonder about the underlying reasons for your hawkish stance Kayra. Family values are inextricably tied to filial piety. Both parents must be loved and respected unconditionally - for without both you would not exist. You have every right to disapprove of their behavior, but dare not hate their souls.

 

Hate? I spoke of them governing, controlling, deciding the direction of the human race. I do not hate my dead alcoholic father, nor my over controlling anal step father. I pity them. I never spoke of hate. Was this something from your own soul reflected in this situation?

 

Do you think you will get peace?

Absolutely!

OK. We will just have to disagree on that point.

 

 

You stated

Its just a metter of making a mind change and deciding to grow up.

Utterly true, and profoundly difficult (and probably impossible) on a global scale :warped:

 

MagnetMan, you appear to have a clear vision of where you believe mankind will have to be in order to see world peace. From what I can see, it is quite a pleasant vision, and visionaries are the true future of mankind

 

You do not appear, however, to have a clear road map of how to get there. You speak of evolutionary imperatives, new consciousness, inevitable spontaneous adoption of a philosophy of global stewardship by all humanity. These are the points that I constantly take issue with. These are the statements you make, as though fact, that make me Hawkish towards your visions of mankind's future. You constantly present your opinion as though it was hard fact, and it is that alone that I take issue with.

[MagnetMan]

 

Utterly true, and profoundly difficult (and probably impossible) on a global scale :(

 

While we continue to insist on our differences - profoundly difficult is a direct reflection of our current teenage syndrome. But evolution is not static, depite ourselves Nature will force us to grow up - or go extinct. Growing up means thinking like a parent. All sincere parents think exactly alike, thank God.:)

 

MagnetMan, you appear to have a clear vision of where you believe mankind will have to be in order to see world peace. From what I can see, it is quite a pleasant vision, and visionaries are the true future of mankind

 

You betya!

 

You do not appear, however, to have a clear road map of how to get there.

I have a small, but select group who think otherwise.

You speak of evolutionary imperatives, new consciousness, inevitable spontaneous adoption of a philosophy of global stewardship by all humanity These are the points that I constantly take issue with. These are the statements you make, as though fact, that make me Hawkish towards your visions of mankind's future. You constantly present your opinion as though it was hard fact, and it is that alone that I take issue with.

 

My conclusions were arrived at by a lengthy and careful examination (in the field) of each of our past Age of evoltionary graduations.

We have moved from family group; to clan group; to national group; to international group. I have explained the evolutionary imperatives behind each of those mass changes of consciousness - repeatedly and at length.

 

Why do you now say that we have arrived at the end of the evolutionary road?

 

The next step as a global group is both clear and logical - and not some rhetorical proclamation, arbitrary made by myself, as you consistently claim. I have also explained how 200 million New Age weterners have already taken that step, and are all working towards the same globalization end that I am. You may not like it. And in many ways I too have my reservations. (Teenage hang-ups?) But I cannot argue with the evidence I have collected.

 

Give me an alternative evolutionary sequence that shows that we are now a fully matured specie, if you are so certain that you have the facts yourself.

[Kayra]

My conclusions were arrived at by a lengthy and careful examination (in the field) of each of our past Age of evoltionary graduations.

We have moved from family group; to clan group; to national group; to international group. I have explained the evolutionary imperatives behind each of those mass changes of consciousness - repeatedly and at length.

 

And all stated with a Strong opinion, as fact, and careful to avoid any.

 

Why do you now say that we have arrived at the end of the evolutionary road?

 

I do not. I only state that natural evolution no longer applies to us. To evolve any farther will require either the patience to wait another 50,000 years, or that we use genetic engineering to evolve ourselves.

 

The next step as a global group is both clear and logical - and not some rhetorical proclamation, arbitrary made by myself, as you consistently claim. I have also explained how 200 million New Age weterners have already taken that step, and are all working towards the same globalization end that I am. You may not like it. And in many ways I too have my reservations. (Teenage hang-ups?) But I cannot argue with the evidence I have collected.

 

Evidence? Nothing but statements MagnetMan. If you presented the evidence, then perhaps I would not argue with you.

 

Give me an alternative evolutionary sequence that shows that we are now a fully matured specie, if you are so certain that you have the facts yourself.

 

I have no crystal ball. Neither do you, unless you are claiming that you are a prophet. I have no alternative for you. I do not have the "Facts". If I did, this conversation would be over.

 

In 50,000 years, under a vast array of powerful environmental pressures, mankind has differentiated. In that time he has never differentiated so much that he has speciated. That will take vastly more time. Our pace of technological progress now means that evolutionary changes occur at such a pace as to be inconsequential. Evolution no longer exists as far as mankind is physically concerned except for the evolution he enforces with his own technology.

[MagnetMan]

In 50,000 years, under a vast array of powerful environmental pressures, mankind has differentiated. In that time he has never differentiated so much that he has speciated. That will take vastly more time. Our pace of technological progress now means that evolutionary changes occur at such a pace as to be inconsequential. Evolution no longer exists as far as mankind is physically concerned except for the evolution he enforces with his own technology.

 

I am not and never have been talking about our phsyical evolution. My focus has been on the evolution of our social and spiritiual states of self-awareness. In this metaphysical realm of intellectual and emotional consciousness our acceleration has been phenomenal.

 

For instance, the Kalahari Bushman has the same cubic brain capacity as you - but in terms of self awareness your genes are ancestrally imprinted with a 1000 generations of more experiential information - in which increasingly artificialized measurements of time and space has been integral to our development and have taken hundreds of generations of industrial occupational disciplines to seat. He remains an infant in which time and space remain naively relevant. You are in your sophisticated teens, pseudo-intellectually convinced that your scientific measurments are more real. This difference can simply be measured by a Bushman's idea of the size and distance of a star to yours. You can measure that same distance between your present consciousness and an infant's. Science is now leaning back towards relativity - but not from such a naive perspective.

 

That is why I correlate the collective consciousness with each atage of individual edevlopment. Just as you go from infancy, through seven states of consciousness before death, so too is the collective consciousness moving from a state of Stone Age naivette through seven Ages of development to a future Age of Cosmic sagaciousness. We are mid-cycle right now. Via this projection, I can see into the future. You will reach old Age and transcend death. So too will the collective in precisely the same way.

 

You are now thinking and acting like a pseudo-intellectual teeanager, and so is the world in general. As the collective moves, so shall we, As this Nuclear Age progresses we will begin to experience the first stage of adulthood - some already have begun the transition.

 

Sure I am making assumptions of what our behavior will be like it is like in our collective adulthood. Teenagers like conflict and cometition. Parents like peace and security for their chuildren to grow up in. That is why idealism is so important. It makes us think outside the gun.

 

Your teenage fear of loosing personal identity in a conformist future is natural, but also groundless. No matter how closely we all cooperate in the future, no two of us will ever experience the ups and downs of life in exactly the same way. No too of us will ever dream alike. Our individuality is sacred territory that not even God will trespass upon.:hihi:

[Kayra]

I am not and never have been talking about our phsyical evolution. My focus has been on the evolution of our social and spiritiual states of self-awareness. In this metaphysical realm of intellectual and emotional consciousness our acceleration has been phenomenal.

 

 

That is MUCH better. If you are speaking of the evolution of a mindset, you truly have my attention. Physically, we are a mature species (just as a teenager is physically mature enough to have a child in your parlance). With our plastic brain able to change and adapt to new environments and situations, we have a tool that allows personal and near immediate evolution of our very way of thinking.

 

 

For instance, the Kalahari Bushman has the same cubic brain capacity as you - but in terms of self awareness your genes are ancestrally imprinted with a 1000 generations of more experiential information -

 

 

<Sigh>

You just went back to a physical evolutionary process that can not be substantiated. :hihi: While our brain is the result of 1000's of generations of evolution that result in changes in our genes, the evolution of the mindset is a social and cultural one, and I doubt it has any effect on our genetic structure (even as a so called "Imprint", a concept quite easily disproved.).

 

If the bushman child is born and raised in New York, by an Irish cabbie, he/she would take on the mental attributes of that culture. NO remnant or "imprint" of his previous culture would remain.

 

You really had my hopes up when you spoke of the mental evolution of man (something I personally believe in), but then you went back to tying it into physical evolution. :rolleyes:

 

The rest of your post is an interesting statement of your beliefs.

[MagnetMan]

 

If the bushman child is born and raised in New York, by an Irish cabbie, he/she would take on the mental attributes of that culture. NO remnant or "imprint" of his previous culture would remain.

 

Now you have just made a rhetorical statement. Language and cultural mores certainly. Even medicine. But show me one aboriginal child of unmixed genes who has mastered mathematics inside one generation and I will eat every word I have ever written.

[InfiniteNow]

Now you have just made a rhetorical statement. Language and cultural mores certainly. Even medicine. But show me one aboriginal child who has mastered mathematics inside one generation and I will eat every word I have ever written.

Are you serious? This would not be hard. You could bring me an aboriginal child with motivation and I will teach them math inside of a week, let alone a generation. Hell, I'm not even that good at math...

[Kayra]

Now you have just made a rhetorical statement. Language and cultural mores certainly. Even medicine. But show me one aboriginal child who has mastered mathematics inside one generation and I will eat every word I have ever written.

 

Rhetoric (from Greek ρήτωρ, rhêtôr, "orator") is the art or technique of persuasion, usually through the use of language.

 

Thanks :hyper:

 

I am afraid I am without aboriginal child at this time. Sorry.

 

It is interesting, however, that you ask for proof of my statement without offering proof of yours.

[MagnetMan]

Are you serious? This would not be hard. You could bring me an aboriginal child with motivation and I will teach them math inside of a week, let alone a generation. Hell, I'm not even that good at math...

 

How do you instill the motivation?. You do that and I will teach them math in a day.

[TheBigDog]

Now you have just made a rhetorical statement. Language and cultural mores certainly. Even medicine. But show me one aboriginal child of unmixed genes who has mastered mathematics inside one generation and I will eat every word I have ever written.

You have ascended to new heights of ignorance. Why are you still here? Do you have a fetish for being proven wrong?

 

Bill

[MagnetMan]

You have ascended to new heights of ignorance. Why are you still here? Do you have a fetish for being proven wrong?

 

Bill

 

What are your own qualifications in mass psychology? Or is this just some kind of personal fetish of your own? I have spent thirty years on this subject, world wide, and have taught maths to third world students. I can understand your sanctimonious outrage, but it is obvious you don't know what you are speaking about.

[InfiniteNow]

Time is relative. So is education. Your consistent statements of your age and experience do not support your claims. Data, that is not subjective, and not biased, is what you must offer to be taken seriously. The support you present for your claims, while often eloquent, is frequently opinion based and touted as absolute. All of this weighs against you when you desire to convince an audience of those engaged using the ideals of science.

[MagnetMan]

Time is relative. So is education. Your consistent statements of your age and experience do not support your claims. Data, that is not subjective, and not biased, is what you must offer to be taken seriously. The support you present for your claims, while often eloquent, is frequently opinion based and touted as absolute. All of this weighs against you when you desire to convince an audience of those engaged using the ideals of science.

 

I am not presenting an official thesis here in search of any kudus from any of you.. I am presenting an argument on the subject of the problems of world peace, in which it is obvious there is no one in this forum that has the remotest undertanding of that that entails or what is at stake. As far as I can see, until anyone else can state that they have also invested half their lives traveling abroad to over a dozen countries, researching and documenting films that have been broadcast world wide to over fifty million people, I would seem that I am the most informed person present on this subject.

 

The endeless stream of personal attacks on me make no sense and serve no constructive purpose. I have no problems dealing with all the arguments I have had to face down, (though I have yet to deal with one that I consider a serious challenge to my private thesis) since it presents the opportunity to publically discuss very serious human issues and thereby allow more reflective browsers to make up their own opinions as to how close to the truth my communication is. .

[InfiniteNow]

It's just you against the world, huh?

 

 

They're ALL wrong! When will everyone else realize my truth? Everyone is wrong but me!!! :hyper:

[Edella]

How do you instill the motivation?. You do that and I will teach them math in a day.

Why would one have to instill motivation?Why would any given aboriginal child be less likely to have motivation

(for math or anything else )than someone of a different genetic makeup?

 

....and have taught maths to third world students.

But not aboriginal children I presume. Have you tried and failed?Have others tried and failed?

 

Honestly curious,

Ed

[Kayra]

I am not presenting an official thesis here in search of any kudus from any of you.. I am presenting an argument on the subject of the problems of world peace, in which it is obvious there is no one in this forum that has the remotest undertanding of that that entails or what is at stake.

 

No you are not. You are making broad statements of your opinion, and presenting them as facts, without supporting them. A science forum is probably the worst place on the Internet to try and do this.

By "Remotest Understanding" I assume that you mean that the members do not agree with your point of view or beliefs. I would bet that many do agree with the few facts that you present. It is just unfortunate that you present so few.

 

As far as I can see, until anyone else can state that they have also invested half their lives traveling abroad to over a dozen countries, researching and documenting films that have been broadcast world wide to over fifty million people, I would seem that I am the most informed person present on this subject.

 

The Student must NOT question the teacher. The Teacher is always right.

The Teacher has nothing to learn from the student.

 

The endeless stream of personal attacks on me make no sense and serve no constructive purpose. I have no problems dealing with all the arguments I have had to face down, (though I have yet to deal with one that I consider a serious challenge to my private thesis) since it presents the opportunity to publically discuss very serious human issues and thereby allow more reflective browsers to make up their own opinions as to how close to the truth my communication is. .

 

I truly hope that no single post of mine could be construed as a personal attack. If any were, please understand that it was not in any way intentional, and I will post an immediate public apology. I am serious about that.

 

I will, however, admit that I have attacked your arguments as mercilessly as I can. Where you state opinion as fact I was abruptly dismissive. Where you misrepresented, I tried to clarify. It was all intended as constructive, in the hopes that you would better learn how to present your concepts in a way more palatable to a science forum. I consider my attempts a failure.