Astronomical logic for an old universe

[TeleMad]

This if from an entry in my personal notes. I don't believe I've posted it at this site before, but even if I have, I've added stuff.

 

According to the Big Bang theory, our Universe began about 14 billion years ago. Astronomers have been peering farther and farther back in time as their telescopes improved, and have observed regions of space that are over 10 billion light years distant. Since these regions of space are greater than 10 billion light years away, it has taken the light from them more than 10 billion years to reach us. But Young-Earth Creationists claim the Universe is only 6 to 10 thousand years old, so how can astronomers be receiving photons that are 10 billion years old or older? YECs use the same general logic as they do for other phenomena: God created the Universe mature.

 

Since, science says that 6,000 years ago there were photons from a galaxy 10 billion light years away headed towards Earth, YECs just claim that when God created those stars that far away that He also placed some of their photons already in route to the Earth at various distances, such that they would be observed as though they left the stars 10 billion light years ago. In other words, some of their photons were placed just a few thousand light years away from Earth even though the stars were created billions of light years distant. Deceit? Sounds like it to me.

 

Let’s see if we can easily come up with a satisfactory explanation – besides deceit – that God would have done so.

 

Could it be so that plants on Earth could photosynthesize? No, because the Sun is all plants need, not stars from outside our own galaxy.

 

Could it be so that travelers could navigate? No. First, stars and galaxies billions of light years distant are not even visible with the naked eye, so they could not possibly be used for navigation. Second, there are many stars within a 10,000-light-year radius from Earth - which would be visible to the naked eye - that could serve for navigation. Just to give an idea of how close some of the stars in a few main constellations are…

 

Big Dipper: Those listed on a diagram are 68, 78, 88, 105, and 210 light-years distant.

(http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/ast99/ast99237.htm)

 

Ursa Major: Those listed are 50, 65, 70, 80, 90, and 210 light-years distant.

(http://www.geocities.com/~smalltelescope/constellations/ursamajor/ursamaj2.html)

 

Draco: Those listed are 65, 93, 110, 215, and 400 light-years distant.

(http://starryskies.com/The_sky/constellations/draco.html)

 

Draco: Those listed are 88, 99, 110, 188, 289, 322, 397, 1186, and 1500 – 3500 light-years distant.

(http://www.kyes-world.com/DracoskyPRINTABLE.htm)

 

Ursa Minor: Those listed are 110, 240, and 350 light-years distant.

(http://starryskies.com/The_sky/constellations/ursa_minor.html)

 

Orion: Those listed are 300, 650, 800 (a total of 2 different stars), 1600, and 2000 light-years distant.

(http://starryskies.com/The_sky/constellations/orion.html)

 

 

Here are a couple of exchanges with a Creationist about this. We can see that his attempts fail.

 

 

<Creationist> But we don't need to wonder why there are stars, we have been told:

 

...He also made the sta

[Uncle Martin]

The above post is so well written that there is little I can add. Apparently nobody cares to try to refute it either, smart move. The "scientifically ignorant" statement brings up a good point. It is much more difficult to learn and understand all of the science that explains our universe than to say "god made it". It doesn't take exceptional intelligence,...just some serious studying. Is it possible that many of the religious are ignorant of science because it is just easier? They are taught so much false "science" by their leaders that disseminating fact from fiction must be difficult.

 

I agree with TeleMad,...I get infinitely more satisfaction and sense of awe looking at the night sky through the spectacles of science than anyone could ever experience simply believing that god did it.

[TeleMad]

And continuing from the same section of my personal notes...

 

2) Why have astronomers detected “millions” of quasars?

Stars and galaxies – which still exist - are one thing, but quasars are a whole new ball game. They don’t exist now and didn’t exist 10 thousand years ago. So why would God create the illusion that something that never existed in His universe – quasars – did exist billions of years ago? That takes deceit to a whole new level.

 

The word quasar comes from “quasi stellar” and refers to small (solar system size) but extremely energetic sources of energy (output as much energy as large galaxies). More importantly, it is now known that quasars lie at great distances from our own galaxy (the theories that suggested they were local have been discredited by multiple lines of compelling evidence). The key is that quasars only occur at vast distances from the Earth, which means they occurred only in the very distant past: billions of years ago. In fact, the existence of quasars is one line of evidence that discredits the steady-state theory of the Universe: the Universe was different in the distant past than it is now…quasars no longer occur. Quasars fit in nicely with the Big Bang and standard cosmological models that allow for billions of years.

 

What’s the Young-Earth Creationist’s explanation for quasars? Well, they can’t simply deny that quasars exist. So did God purposely fake out scientists by creating the illusion that there were once “millions” of quasars billions of years ago, even though God never actually created any quasars in his Universe? That would be pretty deceitful, wouldn’t it.

 

 

3) Why is there a 2.73 kelvin cosmic microwave background radiation?

Penzias and Wilson are credited with discovering the existence of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR). But they weren’t looking for it, and, they didn’t know what they found when they found it: it was an accidental discovery. Completely independently, a group of physicists calculated that there should be leftover radiation from the big bang and because of the length of time since the BB, the radiation should be ‘shifted’ down into the microwave region of the spectrum. This was a prediction based on the BB theory and was made before any evidence had shown that the CMBR existed. When Penzias and Wilson heard of the physicists’ calculations, only then did they know what they had found. So the prediction made from BB theory turned out to very nicely match – within just a couple of “degrees” kelvin – what was found independently. The scientific explanation, with its old Universe, hangs together quite well.

 

What’s the Young-Earth Creationist’s explanation for the cosmic microwave background radiation? Well, it’s there…they can’t deny that. But it must have been put there, purposely, by God just 6 or 10 thousand years ago.

 

First, why did God put any microwave background radiation in space, in agreement with the BB theory? It seems to serve no purpose, except to help confirm the Big Bang theory.

 

Second, why did God distribute the CMBR so evenly throughout space, in agreement with the BB theory?

 

Third, why did God make the CMBR such that it would be about 3 kelvin when measured, in agreement with the BB theory?

 

Why did God plant the CMBR evidence in such a manner – with three different properties that all point to the universe being over 10 billion years old - as to deceive scientists?

[skywalcore]

If I were to look at this matter from a religious perspective, I would say...

 

Just remember, when God created Adam he did not create a baby, he created a

man. When God created the Universe he used the same logic.

[Uncle Martin]

You are posting at a science forum, we require you to provide evidence of your claims. Therefore,...show us evidence to support the existence of god, his creation of adam, the universe, and how you know he used logic. If you cannot show us any proof, or at least show us where TeleMad's post is not correct, then you have nothing.

[TeleMad]

What's really ironic is that skywalcore tried to use the very "logic" my posts counter.