The U.S. Government is Disgusting

[TheBigDog]

That's so hilarious, I thought I might just have a proper read of this thread.

 

Wow!

Honestly, that is astonishing.

The truth astonishes you so easily. Yet you don't believe the truth and choose to use fiction as your evidence.

The U.S government declares war on Terrorism. What are terrorists? Were al-Qaeda terrorists when they were trained by the CIA and funded by the U.S govt to fight the soviets in Afghanistan?

There was no "Al-Qaeda" when the Afghans were fighting the Soviets. A bit of a history lesson, as all actions exist in a context, and without correct context facts are twisted by those seeking fiction to be truth. I am assuming you are simply not educated about history, and not trying to distort history for the purpose of your attack upon the US Government.

 

In 1980, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan for the purpose of, well, because they could. No warning, no UN approval, no reason other than imperialism. Many analysts believe that they were positioning themselves to topple oil rich countries that border Afghanistan next, although, thanks to the US, they never got the opportunity. The US was locked in the Cold War at the time. Getting involved with helping those forces resisting the Soviets served many purposes. Among them are; helping people resist the tyranny and oppression of Soviet communism, increasing the the Soviet's cost of waging war, gathering intelligence on our primary enemy at that time - the Soviet Union.

 

The force we backed in resistance of the Soviets was known as the Mujahideen. When the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan, without any effort at leaving a stable government or infrastructure, the lack of societal governances lead to the descent of Afghanistan into being a hive of, on one hand lawlessness (terror camps, militarized tribal warlords), and on the other hand strict fundamentalism that is just another form of repression (Taliban). The fundamentalists took the point of view that the US, who had helped them in their time of need and financed them when they needed to rebuild, was their primary enemy. This was based primarily on cultural grounds, although many Afghan citizens remember the facts as they are, and have not been bullied into ignorance by fundamentalism.

 

After the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990, one Usama Bin-Laden petitioned the Saudi Royal Family to reject any offers of help from the west, and to let him rally the Islamic people in a glorious repeat of their defeat of the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Saudis rejected this plan and the coalition forces ran Iraq out of Kuwait very easily. It was between 1988 and 1992 that Al-Qaeda was organized. Before the gulf war they actually saw the secular government of Iraq as one of their primary enemies. But after the US and western involvement in the liberation of Kuwait, and Usama'a rejection by the Saudi throne the US became the official primary enemy. This is when terrorism against the west became the focus of his energy and fortunes.

Hey, what happens when the most powerful country in the world illegally invades another country?

This question cannot be answered, because it has not happened. I assume you are referring to the US being in Iraq? That action was approved by the UN, arguably the only body capable of deciding that such a thing is "illegal". Read the resolutions that ALL passed. Use facts instead of fiction. Here is a link to the events leading up to our invasion of Iraq(post 37) in case you missed these events as they actually happened. Included is an example of a REAL illegal invasion. Another example would be the one sited above - the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

What is Terrorism? Because it seems to me some groups use it more efficiently than others. ;)

Despite what you wish to believe, the US is not a terrorist state. It is sad that you would come to that conclusion after being a witness to history. Do everyone a favor and do some research that extends beyond websites bent upon defaming the US. America has her ugly spots, but they are a FAR cry from the heinous insinuations and false claims that you are making here. :)

 

Bill

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Our form of government lead to the greatest civilization our planet has ever known .. because it attempted to identify what it means to be human and what the conditions for human survival were in a political sense. That's not exactly an everyday occurance looking back at mankind's history.

Having said that however, it is also true that when lies, half truths and spin become the order of the day, blood will run somewhere. A disrespect for truth always results in disaster.

If we were lied to and manipulated into choosing a course of action we would not have chosen had we been aware of the truth, I for one want the liars punished.

And I am free to ask that because of the wonderful and beautiful work the founding fathers performed.

[bartock]

Our form of government lead to the greatest civilization our planet has ever known .. because it attempted to identify what it means to be human and what the conditions for human survival were in a political sense.

right! like guantanamo prison which the other civilised world wants shut down cuz according to them it is against humanity.

That's not exactly an everyday occurance looking back at mankind's history.

Having said that however, it is also true that when lies, half truths and spin become the order of the day, blood will run somewhere. A disrespect for truth always results in disaster.

usama bin ladin = bush regime

i.e. what bush is doing or allowing in iraq or the kidnappings around the world and the inhumane torture is TERRORISM.this is disaster.the guardians of human rights are working against human rights.

 

If we were lied to and manipulated into choosing a course of action we would not have chosen had we been aware of the truth, I for one want the liars punished.

every one wants that . some one who is insane enough to take human life for material greed deserves a death penalty.

 

And I am free to ask that because of the wonderful and beautiful work the founding fathers performed.

is bush regime working towards the goals that the founding fathers gave? is he not taking away libirties that the american people were so proud of?

[bartock]

al-qeda is the name of the computer program that stores the names and locations of the people trained by the CIA during the afgan invassion (by the USSR). so america created al-qeda. america created the afgan jihads.there was no such thing in the muslim world till the america introduced it through the training of the afgan people.

[TheBigDog]

al-qeda is the name of the computer program that stores the names and locations of the people trained by the CIA during the afgan invassion (by the USSR). so america created al-qeda. america created the afgan jihads.there was no such thing in the muslim world till the america introduced it through the training of the afgan people.

Please produce the documentation to back these claims. Do not continue to use this forum for your lies and propaganda.

 

Bill

[infamous]

al-qeda is the name of the computer program that stores the names and locations of the people trained by the CIA during the afgan invassion (by the USSR).

That's interesting, where did you find this information? And, what connections do you think this has to the movement growing in the Muslim world today? Please produce your evidence to back-up those statements.....................Infy

[MagnetMan]

Representative government is passe. Partisan politics has become grid-locked. Both the Presidency and the Congress have been hijacked by special interest money. The tele-communication and decision-making apperatus is now in place for a true democracy to become a reality. The world's first Government for the people, actually run by all of the people is only a majority initiative away.

[Queso]

Please produce the documentation to back these claims. Do not continue to use this forum for your lies and propaganda.

 

Bill

 

Man, you are so annoying.

All of us here are very concerned,

And I for one am very confused.

 

I don't think we'll ever know the truth,

but we're all here

trying to figure it out.

There's some seriously messed up things going on,

how can you deny that?

I'm not sorry that I severely care

about what is happening on my planet.

 

From my perspective,

You're just spitting lies and propoganda into this forum, TheBigDog.

Because I believe what you know to be lies, and propoganda.

So just hush,

 

I don't trust the government, they are the terrorists.

and wish I knew how to find the truth.

'Cause it's obviously not HERE. :Exclamati

 

There will always be terrorism,

If there are people making love in the streets

there will always be someone dying there, too.

[Queso]

This thread is going nowhere.

 

We don't know what happened.

 

Not even the ones who listenend to every bit of detail on their own Television, ahem.

[Boerseun]

Our form of government lead to the greatest civilization our planet has ever known...

I refuse to accept that shallow consumerism is the greatest civilzation ever known.

It is this sort of arrogance that makes the US very unpopular internationally.

 

There are a few facts overlooked here, that TheBigDog might also want to take note of:

 

The United States is no democracy. The United States is a de facto, if not de jure, two party state.

The United States are abusing human rights as it sees fit. Guantanamo bay is a case in point, where the detention center was intentionally placed off-shore, outside the US so that a whole bunch of niggly laws can be ignored.

The US ignored Hans Blix's findings regarding WMDs on Iraqi soil. President Bush acknowledged the fact that the intelligence leading up to the invasion turned out to be wrong. Do we want a self-proclaimed 'World Policeman' who seem a bit trigger-happy in the face of absent data? A trigger-happy cop sitting on the biggest nuclear stockpile in the world?

The US is stuffing its view of how the world should work down the throats of the rest of the world, regardless of their opinion. Capitalism, materialism, consumerism, all of these have their pros and cons, and the 'States don't seem to realise that in each and every country these philosophies are applied to, the elements of these philosophies need to be tailored, adapted and moderated for that specific country. The American approach is by no means a 'one size fits all' philosophy.

 

I'm not trying to do 'US-bashing' here, you being a patriot is just as good as me being one for my country. Go ahead - wave your flag. Just keep in mind, every single country on the face of this planet has faults, mine included.

[TheBigDog]

Man, you are so annoying.

All of us here are very concerned,

And I for one am very confused.

Get used to it. When you repeatedly denounce facts as lies and claim that proven lies are facts. You are confused because what you want to believe doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense because what you believe is a lie. I have made my case, with facts. Deal with it.

I don't think we'll ever know the truth,

but we're all here

trying to figure it out.

There's some seriously messed up things going on,

how can you deny that?

I'm not sorry that I severely care

about what is happening on my planet.

 

I don't trust the government, they are the terrorists.

and wish I knew how to find the truth.

'Cause it's obviously not HERE. :Exclamati

You don't think you will ever know the truth. You are looking for the truth. But you absolutly know that the government is lying. So do you consider the statement "the government is lying" to be an absolute truth on all matters? Document a lie. Find something other than rumor and innuendo. Bring it and discuss it. But be prepared for your preconceived notion of true and false to be turned on its head by the facts. I am prepared for that. Bring it.

 

Bill

[Queso]

How about You offer me some documents that what happened actually happened?

 

Because it seems as if you don't remember

WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THIS EARLIER IN THE THREAD, DUH

No progression?

Stuck in the same place?

 

Lame.

 

This thread's going nowhere.

 

Oops I already said that.

[TheBigDog]

I refuse to accept that shallow consumerism is the greatest civilzation ever known.

It is this sort of arrogance that makes the US very unpopular internationally.

If the United States could be boiled down to being just shallow consumerism then I would agree with you 100%. While it is certainly here, it is not in my opinion the defining characteristic of US culture. That may appear different from the outside.

 

I would love to debate the other points with you (although for the most part I am in complete agreement with you), but they are not central to the discussion on this thread. The video at the beginning of this thread accuses the US of staging the 9/11 attacks, and the Bush administration of masterminding them and conspiring to cover them up. I am debating those accusations made on that video. As is typical when a foundless conspiracy is confronted with facts the believers in the conspiracy are trying to associate non related events as proof of their own theory, with no linking data or logic. Some choose to retell history by carefully omitting facts that contradict their intended argument - or by just making up new history as they go. And when all else fails they just call everyone a liar and rant about lies.

 

This thread should be held to the same standard of proof as any other at Hypography. I am just looking for people to bring proof of the conspiracy for rational discussion.

 

Bill

[Edella]

america created the afgan jihads.there was no such thing in the muslim world till the america introduced it through the training of the afgan people.

What?Jihad is of American origin?

Your knowlege of "Jihad"seems to be limited at best.To claim there was no such thing in the Muslim world till America introduced it through the training of the Afghan people is laughable.There are two types of jihad as described in the Qur'an:the lesser type is the struggle against religious or political oppression, the second and greater is the soul's struggle with evil,and while the current events in the Middle East might be unique in many aspects,Jihad,in concept and in practice,is not.

 

I'm not a supporter of current American policy in the Middle East,but statements like yours make those of us who question current policy in the Middle East look foolish.Do a little research next time!

[pgrmdave]

How about You offer me some documents that what happened actually happened?

 

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html - The full report as to what happened, why, and how to prevent it.

[Queso]

Cute novel

[Edella]

Cute novel

C'mon orbsycli,give us something more than that.

What don't you like about it?