Piezoelectric earth

[Turtle]

I searched 'field mill' as I didn't know that device & I found plans for building one.

http://www.precisionstrobe.com/jc/fieldmill/fieldmill.html

I have a small multimeter & I thought one lead grounded & the other as an

aerial? Just thinking out loud. I will look over the field mill plans & description in more detail. Thanks as always Frank.:)

 

I re-read the 'build-your-own' plans again & also some other links on 'field mills'. I found a commercial model with computer software for about $2000 US here:

http://www.boltek.com/efm100.htm

I have in mind to experiment with my multimeter grounded & swinging a piece of wire on the other lead. Will the needle deflect? Shall I read for change in voltage?(not likely) Current? Resistance?

Racoon, I gave Frank's link & the only thing I suggest is that he is onto something different here. I intend to look into it...some more.

[FrankM]

I have in mind to experiment with my multimeter grounded & swinging a piece of wire on the other lead. Will the needle deflect?

I doubt it. Typical multimeters are low impedance devices and they will effectively short out the small differential presented by the atmospheric gradient. At sea level the earth-to-air atmospheric gradient is approximately 100 volts/meter and I would hesitate to state what the potentials source impedance would be.

 

But with the link you provided, are you also perhaps suggesting a correlation of Lightening activity and Seismic activity?

Lightning has not been reliably identified but many other types of atmospheric phenomena have been observed.

A light or glow in the sky sometimes heralds a big earthquake. On 17 January 1995, for example, there were 23 reported sightings in Kobe, Japan, of a white, blue, or orange light extending some 200 meters in the air and spreading 1 to 8 kilometers across the ground. Hours later a 6.9-magnitude earthquake killed more than 5500 people. Sky watchers and geologists have documented similar lights before earthquakes elsewhere in Japan since the 1960s and in Canada in 1988.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/2367

 

Anytime you place a conductive material within an electric field the characteristics of that field will be altered. A kite (ala Ben Franklin) or a helium balloon could hoist a thin wire such that a greater potential would be present, but you would still need a very high impedance measuring device. Also, Ben didn't have powerlines to worry about. The beauty of the field mill is that, except for its presence, it doesn't interject a large disturbance into the electric field.

[Racoon]

Racoon, I gave Frank's link & the only thing I suggest is that he is onto something different here. I intend to look into it...some more.

 

Sorry for blurting guys, I should have read the thread a little more closely. ;)

 

It goes back quite a ways...

Very cool Frank M!! :) and Very interesting indeed. :) :cup:

 

I am now subscribed to this thread and will check out those links again.

Thank you for turning the wheel in my little rat cage! :)

 

So much Science, so little time....

Racoon

[Turtle]

I doubt it. Typical multimeters are low impedance devices and they will effectively short out the small differential presented by the atmospheric gradient...

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/2367

 

Anytime you place a conductive material within an electric field the characteristics of that field will be altered. A kite (ala Ben Franklin) or a helium balloon could hoist a thin wire such that a greater potential would be present, but you would still need a very high impedance measuring device. Also, Ben didn't have powerlines to worry about. The beauty of the field mill is that, except for its presence, it doesn't interject a large disturbance into the electric field.

 

Ok on the multimeter, I do have the skills to build the field mill described in the link, but I may not have the persaverence. The commercial models are well out of my range. I will continue to consider the options.

I am an experienced kiter, & open space is a more difficult proposition in the area of the caves than is power lines. Then there is the matter of having enough wind.

What circuitry will increase the impedence? I have enough electronics skill to build simple bread-board circuits & 'Shacks in the area.

Good stuff1

Turtle

[FrankM]

There have been many improvements in high impedance low current voltage measurement devices, but I have virtually no expertise in this area. FET and CMOS devices can provide exceptionally high input impedances but I cannot state what level of impedance is necessary to avoid large errors in measurement values when attempting to measure potentials at the earth-atmosphere interface.

 

First, we do not know what potential differences exist over underground voids as compared to a non-void area. Also, we do not know whether or not specific atmospheric conditions will effect the potentials at the surface over voids. All we have are the various published statements, "caves and mines are dangerous during thunderstorms". Does a void increase the potential difference? The article by the caver suggests that potentials over voids are different.

 

We know that golfers are ushered off of golf courses when there are nearby thunderstorms, as it is known earth-to-air potentials at the surface can approach breakdown levels and any object protruding above the surface can influence the breakdown level; the term "point discharge object" is relevant.

 

Here is another site that provides info on building a field mill.

http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.z/Electronic/fieldmill1.htm#Fieldmill%20Voltmeter%20MK%202

 

This device provides a methodology for determining polarity, which would be important for the determination of earthquake induced surface charge levels. Earthquake induced charges provide a short term polarity reversal at the surface relative to the atmosphere.

[Turtle]

Here is another site that provides info on building a field mill.

http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.z/Electronic/fieldmill1.htm#Fieldmill%20Voltmeter%20MK%202

 

This device provides a methodology for determining polarity, which would be important for the determination of earthquake induced surface charge levels. Earthquake induced charges provide a short term polarity reversal at the surface relative to the atmosphere.

 

Thanks again Frank. Besides the added polarity indication feature, this model looks sturdier.

I haven't yet found a description of the field mills use in the field as it were. How they capture the data with the home-builts for example. I noticed most the references have the field mill stationary, but I rather had in mind to move with it on a line taking periodic stationary measurements. While this adds complexity to the data by changing position over time, if you consistantly use that method then you can build up a library of similar readings to compare.

I have bookmarked several of the articles linked to on the new satellite use in mapping Infrared & other variations, & the rock squeezing experiments producing the migrating holes. Off to study then; adieu.:eek_big:

[Turtle]

While doing some morning reading I ran across an article related to electricity & earthquakes at Wired. (the article is at wired; not the quakes:hyper: )

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.05/posts.html?pg=3

 

"This rock is basically a battery," Friedemann Freund says, tapping a 3-foot chunk of granite. To demonstrate his point, he's placed the rock in a refrigerator-sized steel press and attached wires to copper electrodes on either end. The touch of a button drops 20,000 pounds of pressure on the block, sending a few nanoamps of current through the wires.

;)

[FrankM]

There is a controversy between traditional geophysicists and those researchers investigating the "electrical charge" phenomena detected before and during earthquakes. One of the issues is the infrared (IR) emissions detected by earth satellites before earthquakes. Traditional geophysicists keep using the term "earth heating up" and argue that the "IR studies (including NASA satellite-based studies) are not credible and must be flawed since the temperature deviations are not explainable."

 

A paper has been submitted to eEarth, a new (electronic plus peer review) journal of the European Geoscience Union which describes how IR emissions have been detected at the surface of rock stressed in laboratory tests. The abstract noted the various spectrum changes in the IR emissions as loading increased but there was no actual surface heating. The abstract gave this conclusion:

We propose that the observed narrow IR emission bands arise from vibrationally excited O-O stretching modes which form when p-hole charge carriers (activated in the stressed rock) spread into the unstressed portion of the rock to the surface, where they recombine and radiatively decay. The effect, stimulated IR emission due to hole-hole recombination, may help understand the enhanced IR emission seen in night-time satellite images of the land surface before major earthquakes known as "thermal anomalies".

We know that "something" is responsible for producing what are termed "earthquake lights", in the visual range, and it is reasonable to suggest that this same "something" can be manifested in IR emissions also.

 

The various satellites convert their detected IR emissions to a "heat scale" before transmitting the information to earth, thus making it appear that the earth is heating up. To avoid the lumped "heat scale" it will be necessary to build equipment that will record and transmit information about the various IR emission bands observed before earthquakes.

 

Traditional geophysicists refuse to accept that individuals outside of their specialty could possibly know anything about earthquake phenomena. They are unable to grasp the implication of IR emissions being created without the "earth heating up".

[Turtle]

A paper has been submitted to eEarth, a new (electronic plus peer review) journal of the European Geoscience Union which describes how IR emissions have been detected at the surface of rock stressed in laboratory tests. The abstract noted the various spectrum changes in the IR emissions as loading increased but there was no actual surface heating. The abstract gave this conclusion:

We know that "something" is responsible for producing what are termed "earthquake lights", in the visual range, and it is reasonable to suggest that this same "something" can be manifested in IR emissions also.

 

...

Traditional geophysicists refuse to accept that individuals outside of their specialty could possibly know anything about earthquake phenomena. They are unable to grasp the implication of IR emissions being created without the "earth heating up".

Is that paper published now?

Are you doing any active research Frank, or have some plans in the pipe?

I keep thinking I may try & make my own field mill, but without a computer to record data it seems a bit of a futile venture. Do you have a field mill & use it? Do you have others interested in this?

Do you think landbased FLIR units can record the IR changes?

A lot more comes to mind, but this suffices for now.:shrug: :lol:

[FrankM]

Is that paper published now?

Are you doing any active research Frank, or have some plans in the pipe?

I keep thinking I may try & make my own field mill, but without a computer to record data it seems a bit of a futile venture. Do you have a field mill & use it? Do you have others interested in this?

Do you think landbased FLIR units can record the IR changes?

A lot more comes to mind, but this suffices for now.:D :)

 

I haven't heard whether the paper has been published yet. I tried to check the website of eEarth for evidence of publication but I do not know where to find it on that site.

 

http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/ee

 

As far as recording data from a field mill, the usual method is with an analog to digital converter, and data snapshots are recorded on a computer. I read that computer sound cards are being used very effectively as A-to-D devices in some applications.

 

I doubt if a FLIR that is immersed in the environment it is trying to measure would detect a change. The issues are the rise time of the incident IR emission and the extent of the area affected and whether it is sharply defined. The satellites are detecting the IR emissions from a rather large area. Others are interested in the causes of the IR emissions and have reported on them, which is why I know about them.

 

I do not have a field mill, although I wish I had one sometimes.

[Turtle]

Hey Frank.:doh: Checking in. :doh: Say I noticed a spate of UFO reports this past week or so in the mainstream press and started thinking of you. Have you looked into any correlation to UFO sightings and earthquakes or earthquake lights? If not, what do you think of the idea? :doh:

[FrankM]

Hey Frank. Checking in. Say I noticed a spate of UFO reports this past week or so in the mainstream press and started thinking of you. Have you looked into any correlation to UFO sightings and earthquakes or earthquake lights? If not, what do you think of the idea?

Earthquake "lights" are the result of ionization of the air over a seismic event, this caused by the massive current generated by that event. We only see the earthquake lights when the ionization is such that it generates visible light. Lesser seismic events could produce ionization products that would be visible in the infrared and ultraviolet regions, but we don't carry these type detectors around with us all the time. The infrared and ultraviolet ionization products would be visible before and during a big seismic event, but who is looking?

 

Power companies use infrared and ultraviolet detectors to identify ionization breakdown occurring at HV power insulators before they become so severe they are visible (usually indicating an insulator fault and pending short).

[Turtle]

There is a controversy between traditional geophysicists and those researchers investigating the "electrical charge" phenomena detected before and during earthquakes. ...

 

 

Thought you might enjoy this Frank. :D >>

forgetomori » Earthlights on Peru’s Earthquake?

According to El Comercio from Peru,

 

“During the night … before and after the stron earthquake, neighbours from the districts of Miraflores, La Molina and Cercado de Lima assured having seen the sky light up because of an unexpected lightning in the middle of the night. Nevertheless, the National Hydrology and Meteorology told El Comercio that it didn’t detect any anomaly in Lima’s skies, and assured that this phenomenon could have been caused by the light of a beacon or some spinning panels that exist in the city”.

[Turtle]

There is a controversy between traditional geophysicists and those researchers investigating the "electrical charge" phenomena detected before and during earthquakes. ...

 

Hey Frank! Check this out; :confused: This device looks much simpler to build and use than the field mill. >>

 

 

Joe Tate: Ambient Power Module

...On April 24, 1984, a 6.0 magnitude earthquake struck about 90 miles from the APM recording station in Sausalito. Days later, while looking through the data, I noticed that the APM output dropped to less than half its normal value for several hours during the afternoon 6 days before the earthquake (Figure 2) [Not shown] this was very peculiar, because most of the APM's power came from broadcast signals, and broadcasting stations hadn't done anything different that afternoon. Apparently something had temporarily depressed the propagation of radio waves. At high frequencies, such effects can be caused by atmospheric conditions. But the lower frequencies involved here are hardly affected, particularly not the signals from the nearest stations, which account for most of the power received. It was tempting to think this strange radio depression might somehow have been a precursor to the earthquake.

 

Joe Tates Ambient Power Module Joe Tate: Ambient Power Module

[rockytriton]

Yes very interesting. Is there any potential for utilizing this energy source for power consumption? Google shows a Piezoelectric effect for fault lines/ earthquakes. And using these effects for predicting them. What about using such energy sources for generating usable power? Would seem polution free.

 

I would love to get a hold of an earthquake powered car! :confused:

[FrankM]

Hey Frank! Check this out; :) This device looks much simpler to build and use than the field mill. >>

 

The disruption of radio propagation prior to major earthquakes has been noted as far back as the 1960s. The APM device will be influenced by propagation disruptions that are hundreds of miles away and they can be in any direction. A field mill will detect the differential potential in-line with the direction of the vane aperture, the local potential. A field mill sitting vertically will detect the difference between where the device is sitting and the atmosphere above it.

 

Below is an abstract of Friedemann Freund's work prepared by someone else.

 

IEEE Spectrum: Early Warning For Earthquakes

 

I was unable to download the full article from IEEE. Any IEEE members here?

[Turtle]

Hey Frank! Check this out; This device looks much simpler to build and use than the field mill. >> Joe Tate: Ambient Power Module

 

The disruption of radio propagation prior to major earthquakes has been noted as far back as the 1960s. The APM device will be influenced by propagation disruptions that are hundreds of miles away and they can be in any direction. A field mill will detect the differential potential in-line with the direction of the vane aperture, the local potential. A field mill sitting vertically will detect the difference between where the device is sitting and the atmosphere above it.

 

I suggest then that an array of Ambient Power Modules similarly oriented may well triangulate the signals in the same manner as arrays of seismometers locate quake epicenters & depth. If I recall from the article, the radio anomaly preceded the actual quake by 6 days. .......:)