Prayer doesn't help

[InfiniteNow]

TheBigDog's remark about optimists is interesting, I would expect optimists to be less likely to pray than pessimists, so a study comparing those who voluntarily pray for themselves to recover with those who dont, might be interesting.

That would make an interesting study, as I'd actually argue the other way. I would think that pessimists wouldn't bother praying, figuring "what's the point?" Whereas an optimist will find other avenues...

 

I guess we'll need to wait until someone does a study like this before either of us can know for sure. You up for getting IRB approval on this one? I'll write up the methods section... :)

[InfiniteNow]

Thank you Infy.

Hrmmm... Actually, Infy is on vacation. :)

 

 

The point is that if prayer works, it shouldn't matter what the religion of the object of said prayer chooses to practice. If a christian prays for a buddhist, should not the results be the same as if that christian prayed for a baptist, or even another christian? That's the point. You could be praying for a tree, it's just harder to test the effect of that prayer on the tree than on a human.

This is an awfully bold statement that shows a serious lack of knowledge about theology.

I'd argue that it shows a lack of knowledge on your part regarding the nature of the study. However, you've elaborated a bit below, so I'll hold judgement for a moment.

 

 

First of all, do Budhists even believe in prayer? Prayer to whom?

 

Prayer in most people's minds will only work for those who truly believe in the value of that prayer.

So, if your (hypothetical) daughter doesn't believe in the value of prayer, but she is diagnosed with Stage 4 liver cancer which has metastisized to her lungs and spine, you are trying to tell me that you wouldn't bother praying for her... you as someone who believes in the power of prayer... because she doesn't believe in it's power? Interesting. I would not have guessed that.

 

 

To say that I can pray for someone and God (the Christian one anyway) will do it because I asked him to, is quite arrogant and without understanding of the scriptures.

I do not believe the study nor my comments here indicated this would be the case, but, okay... thanks for the clarification.

 

 

BTW you might want to edit that part about christians and baptists (Baptists are part of Christendom.)

Nah... You all look the same to me.

:hihi:

 

Just kidding. Please don't take that poke in the ribs too seriously, but there is some truth in it as I was making a point. My point basically was that the practice of prayer is for the person praying, not the object of prayer. You choose to believe in GodType1A, and I believe in GodTypeA1 (it's great on steak, btw)...

 

Does our calling it something different, or interpreting how we feel this higher power wishes us to live our lives differently mean that you will not commune with the god in which you believe on my behalf... or that if you do it will be ineffective... simply because I call it something different?

 

That sounds pretty silly to me, but do does putting cheese on your broccoli, and lots of people do that, so whatever. ;)

[cwes99_03]

I guess my point was that to make such a blanket statement was bold. Prayer means a whole lot of different things to different people. For this study to come out and make suppositions that the prayer in no way affected the patients is just ludicrous in my mind.

 

Now to specify that prayer had no effect on the physical health of those patients is a bit different. However, as 50 % of all groups did improve, what is to say that those who say prayer to their God and ask the he/she bless all humans who are suffering didn't have an affect on those 50%.

 

I'm simply pointing out the absurdity of such a study. To believe that you could make substantiated claims about whether prayer is beneficial or not is ludicrous.

 

Then again "scientists" around the world are saying that we absolutely are undergoing global warming and it's cause is CO2 production every day. To me this is also ludicrous as there simply is not enough data to substantiate all these claims when the trends take thousands of years to work through their cycles, data for which we cannot posses.)

 

Since their are so many beliefs it would be impossible to determine whether one particular belief here had an affect or not.

I am of the belief that only the God that I worship has the ultimate power to make things better and cares enough to want to. If I prayed to him I know he would hear me, but I do know that he will not do everything I ask of him according to my understanding of the scriptures. Some prayers go unanswered for a variety of reasons.

 

Good thing you put this in the theology forum instead of the medicine or biology forum.

[Celeste]

59 percent - suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain.

 

In a nutshell: The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers may also have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

 

I think one should also note that by some estimates, more than 350 prayer studies have already been conducted in the U.S. The majority of them have noted "positive" results and less complications in the prayer patients.

 

On a personal level:

Sunday night, my daughter was admitted for emergency surgery due to a 1.3 ml kidney stone and sepsis.

During surgery, she suffered from a severe complication known as anesthesia induced Atelectasis, (partial collapse of her lung) which further induced pneumonia. She was taken from the recovery to the ICU.

That night several family members prayed.

Monday morning, she was moved down to the acute care unit.

More prayers were said, and she further improved.

Yesturday, Wednesday morning, she was released.

I'll never forget the amazement of all 3 doctors involved.

 

We actually went shopping yesturday and she took the kids swimming today.

 

Power of prayer?

 

"God is not subject to scientific research."

[InfiniteNow]

To believe that you could make substantiated claims about whether prayer is beneficial or not is ludicrous.

I couldn't agree more with statements like this, however I think 1) that you and I may be approaching the issue from a different background, and 2) religious people make claims like this all the time. That's why scientists so frequently b17ch slap them when doing so.

 

However, I do think it was a very creative attempt to test it's effects... Can you think of a better way?

[InfiniteNow]

Then again "scientists" around the world are saying that we absolutely are undergoing global warming and it's cause is CO2 production every day. To me this is also ludicrous as there simply is not enough data to substantiate all these claims when the trends take thousands of years to work through their cycles, data for which we cannot posses.)

Oh dear... yes, we definately are approaching things from different backgrounds. :)

[cwes99_03]

I couldn't agree more with statements like this, however I think 1) that you and I may be approaching the issue from a different background, and 2) religious people make claims like this all the time. That's why scientists so frequently b17ch slap them when doing so.

 

However, I do think it was a very creative attempt to test it's effects... Can you think of a better way?

 

That's just it, I don't think there are absolute ways of testing this. I know religious groups make these claims all the time. Perhaps some of them are real. The large number of them are not (those on televangelists shows on TV are more often than not actors hired for the show, or believers who are willing to say anything in support of their beloved televangelist. Those people disgust me.

 

I do believe that there are supernatural forces at work in this world. I do believe that some people have encountered what they describe as supernatural phenomena (including moving objects, etc.) I do believe that there are angels who act under the direction of their God assist those who are in need. But to attribute every recovery to these forces would be in my mind ludicrous. Even the Bible says "time and unforeseen occurence befall us all."

 

BTW the comment on global warming was just an example. I do believe that we are contributing to Global warming every day, but to say that we are the sole cause of the changing climate is just irresponsible.

[ughaibu]

Another possibly interesting aspect for a study is the distance over which prayer is effective, the comparitive performance of football teams, home and away, suggests that prayer may be less effective with increasing distance.

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by ughaibu

Another possibly interesting aspect for a study is the distance over which prayer is effective, the comparitive performance of football teams, home and away, suggests that prayer may be less effective with increasing distance.

 

I think there have been a few studies like what you have suggested. I'll try to find them.

In the meantime, here are a few interesting study results concerning fungus (Rhizoctonia Solaniplants), germinating seeds, and positive or negative prayer.

 

Jean Barry, a physician-researcher in Bordeaux, France, chooses to work with a destructive fungus, Rhizoctonia Solani. He asked 10 people to try to inhibit its growth merely through their intentions (negative prayer) at a distance of 1.5 meter. When the growth in 195 experimental dishes was compared to their corresponding controls, it was significantly retarded in 151 dishes. The possibility that these results could be explained by chance was less than one in a thousand.

 

Researchers William H. Tedder and Melissa L. Monty from the University of Tennessee replicated the experiment. The goal of this study was to inhibit the growth of the fungus from the distance of one to fifteen miles. When the growth differential between the experimental and control dishes were compared, group one was highly successful. The likelihood of explaining their results by chance were less than 3 in 100,000.

 

In a study on germinating seeds: the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

[ughaibu]

Interesting, thanks.