Science Faith and Religious Truth

[Rsade]

I find an interesting equivalent between religion and science! Both require faith. Faith in abundance. One requires faith in man the other requires faith of a spiritual nature. Both describe the universe and give man a working paradigm to exist in the universe.

 

One may say that science has empirical proof of the claims that it makes. I say that this empirical proof only exists in a frame work of time when it is believed. If you were a scientist of old the truths that constructed the view of your world and universe are quaint notions today!

 

So all ye' faithful science gurus, nothing is as it seems, really, science truth is only truth for the day. And religious truth? God is still God and mass is still mass, (no not atoms and such, church mass if you are of such notions) the universe had a big bang and will have a end, as the bible tells us, and man was created with gods mind, and is of gods mind.

 

Our task it seems is to determine our destiney and then make it happen, before we soil our planet or kill each other off. If we pull this off the gods that be may let us off our terrestrial leash and take us for a long eternal walk among the stars...

 

yeah I am feeling like Poe this morning.....give me a break,Poe was the only poet I could think of....do I hear a thump thump of a heart under the floor planks?...that was a poe thing wasn't it?

[Edella]

nothing is as it seems, really,

It's kinda easy to paint yourself into a corner with statements like that.

[C1ay]

Are you trying to say that gravity only holds me down because of my faith in gravity? Me thinks it requires no faith in man or gravity for gravity to work.

[cwes99_03]

I also believe that faith in God is not required for him to exist.

 

But so far as science has been able to show, faith in the graviton is the only thing causing it to exist :esmoking: .

[Saitia]

If you were a scientist of old the truths that constructed the view of your world and universe are quaint notions today!

 

The high-minded man must care more about the truth than for what people think.

—Aristotle (384 — 322 B. C.) GREEK PHILOSOPHER-SCIENTIST

 

 

If we pull this off the gods that be may let us off our terrestrial leash and take us for a long eternal walk among the stars...

 

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. :D :eek:

 

—Saitia

[Rsade]

Are you trying to say that gravity only holds me down because of my faith in gravity? Me thinks it requires no faith in man or gravity for gravity to work.

 

No, not precisely, but you do have faith that If you jump out of an airplane that gravity will see to it that you smack the earth mitey' hard?

 

Why do you have this faith?

 

Do you have faith that Einstein was correct in that curved space-time causes gravity? Or that Gravity can stop time inside the singularity of a black hole? Do you have faith that there R physics to explain what happens inside a black holes singularity where all the known laws of physics breaks down?

 

I have faith in God because its logical that a creator exists compared to a science theory that may or may not be true a thousand years from now.

[ughaibu]

Einstein has nothing to do with it, years of falling down and dropping things give a person faith in gravity.

[Buffy]

Normally "faith" is defined as " Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" (from dictionary.com). It seems you have a different definition. Could you explain how you define the word, and why the more traditional definition is incorrect?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[cwes99_03]

Pardon me anyone who takes offense at Biblical passages being posted. Buffy, I expect you to censure me :lightbulb if you think that this should not be posted.

 

Hebrews 11:1-35

1 Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. 2 For by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them.

 

3 By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear.

 

4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain, through which [faith] he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness respecting his gifts; and through it he, although he died, yet speaks.

 

5 By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well. 6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.

 

7 By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this [faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.

 

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.

 

11 By faith also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised. 12 Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born [children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands that are by the seaside, innumerable.

 

13 In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them.

 

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son], 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.

 

20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and E´sau concerning things to come.

 

21 By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped leaning upon the top of his staff.

 

22 By faith Joseph, nearing his end, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel; and he gave a command concerning his bones.

 

23 By faith Moses was hid for three months by his parents after his birth, because they saw the young child was beautiful and they did not fear the order of the king. 24 By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Phar´aoh, 25 choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he esteemed the reproach of the Christ as riches greater than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible. 28 By faith he had celebrated the passover and the splashing of the blood, that the destroyer might not touch their firstborn ones.

 

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land, but on venturing out upon it the Egyptians were swallowed up.

 

30 By faith the walls of Jer´i·cho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Ra´hab the harlot did not perish with those who acted disobediently, because she received the spies in a peaceable way.

 

32 And what more shall I say? For the time will fail me if I go on to relate about Gid´e·on, Ba´rak, Samson, Jeph´thah, David as well as Samuel and the [other] prophets, 33 who through faith defeated kingdoms in conflict, effected righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 stayed the force of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from a weak state were made powerful, became valiant in war, routed the armies of foreigners. 35 Women received their dead by resurrection; but other [men] were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.

 

Now the first part really is what many of you are looking for, that is just a simple definition of faith. However the following verses go on to explain that through faith things that should not have happened became true (see highlighted sections.)

[C1ay]

No, not precisely, but you do have faith that If you jump out of an airplane that gravity will see to it that you smack the earth mitey' hard?

:note: Faith is something you believe, not something you know. I do not believe gravity will smack me down if I jumop from a plane, I know it will.....:lightbulb

[cwes99_03]

Actually re read that definition above.

 

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld

 

When you say something you know, that means something you have an assured expectation of. Assurance means that there isn't doubt. That means that you "know" it to be true. Evident demonstration also refers to knowing something to be true, but note it says "though not beheld". Sit and think about that and come back. I've often wondered what others thought about that little verse.

[Buffy]

Buffy, I expect you to censure me :eek: if you think that this should not be posted.

There's no copyright nor offensive verbiage, so no need to censor! You should consider why you assume that I or anyone else here would do so...

Now the first part really is what many of you are looking for, that is just a simple definition of faith. However the following verses go on to explain that through faith things that should not have happened became true (see highlighted sections.)

And this really doesn't show anything other than the selection chosen to be included in Hebrews ex post facto justifies one's faith, and there are many many more counter examples. Plenty of people have had faith that the world would come to an end on various dates proposed throughout history by self-described prophets, or had faith that their virtuous life and strong faith would bring them or others survival or health or happiness when it did not. This shows that faith is a fickle thing, even when you believe in it.

 

Faith is *not* bad. It has been shown statistically with things like the placebo effect to have an impact on events. Thus the purpose of Hebrews 11 to encourage faith is a *good thing*, but on the other hand, its view needs to be tempered with the realization that faith is not a *sure* thing and that's because it is not based on any evidence or facts. So, this still leaves us with the question I posed above: given that Hebrews 11:1 and *many* places in the Bible agree with the definition I gave above that seems to be incompatible with the usage being applied in this thread, what is that definition and what is the justification for throwing out the accepted one?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[cwes99_03]

And this really doesn't show anything other than the selection chosen to be included in Hebrews ex post facto justifies one's faith, and there are many many more counter examples. Plenty of people have had faith that the world would come to an end on various dates proposed throughout history by self-described prophets, or had faith that their virtuous life and strong faith would bring them or others survival or health or happiness when it did not. This shows that faith is a fickle thing, even when you believe in it.

 

Faith is *not* bad. It has been shown statistically with things like the placebo effect to have an impact on events. Thus the purpose of Hebrews 11 to encourage faith is a *good thing*, but on the other hand, its view needs to be tempered with the realization that faith is not a *sure* thing and that's because it is not based on any evidence or facts. So, this still leaves us with the question I posed above: given that Hebrews 11:1 and *many* places in the Bible agree with the definition I gave above that seems to be incompatible with the usage being applied in this thread, what is that definition and what is the justification for throwing out the accepted one?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

Well, I would somewhat agree with you there. Many people say they have faith in something happening, when there is no reason why they can say so. Faith requires evident demonstration.

Perhaps they did believe the end was going to come. When it didn't, did they reexamine their reasons for faith and determine where their faith was wrong? If not, then they really didn't have faith in it in the first place.

But I get your point. That simply putting faith in something does not make it true in the end. However, until it is proved wrong (again an evident demonstration would be necessary) it can be measured as true by those believing it. Thus faith in something equates it being true until an evident demonstration proves it to be false.

 

(Interestingly that is the same as the scientific method for hypothesis. Should some evidence cause an increase in faith, we could equate that to some portion of the hypothesis being proved true.)

[Buffy]

When you say something you know, that means something you have an assured expectation of. Assurance means that there isn't doubt.

Exactly, and on that basis, "Assurance" is nonetheless an *assumption*, not a "fact". As mentioned in my previous post, there are too many instances to count of people "having no doubt" that were not inevitable which is *not* the same thing as "assurance".

That means that you "know" it to be true. Evident demonstration also refers to knowing something to be true, but note it says "though not beheld".

Exactly, and there's a reason you had to put quotes around "know"! You don't know, you have faith!

 

Think about why you are trying to make these things the same. Does it have unintended consequences?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[cwes99_03]

This is not the place to discuss Bible verses, nor is it the place to explain why your religion is much better than the alternatives. There are plenty of forums for that on the web already. Please respect our wishes to maintain a forum which first and foremost concerns the scientific aspects of religion, and not the faith aspects of it.

Thus my earlier post.

[Buffy]

Perhaps they did believe the end was going to come. When it didn't, did they reexamine their reasons for faith and determine where their faith was wrong? If not, then they really didn't have faith in it in the first place.

Then no one save Abraham and Moses have any right to claim "faith" which will make Heaven a very lonely place.... (hint: unintended consequences)

However, until it is proved wrong (again an evident demonstration would be necessary) it can be measured as true by those believing it. Thus faith in something equates it being true until an evident demonstration proves it to be false.

That's why this ex post facto definition really doesn't matter: its faith as the definition *before the fact*, and after the fact, its still possible to interpret it as a lucky guess because there's no evidence of the "truth" having been received before the fact!

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

So, I think I've finally wrapped my head around this whole thing. I know I will fall toward the ground due to gravity upon jumping out of said plane, but I have faith that my parachute will open. The two seem to compliment one another. :eek: