Science Faith and Religious Truth

[Buffy]

Thus my earlier post.

Don't be a fundamentalist about it {*profuse* smilies}! Your usage of a biblical quotation was perfectly appropriate because it was used in an epistemological context, and I'll strongly defend it. What the rules are trying to proscribe is discussions about for example the exact date of the Rapture or who will be taken.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[cwes99_03]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Rsade]

Faith is something you believe, not something you know. I do not believe gravity will smack me down if I jumop from a plane, I know it will.....

 

I disagree. Nothing is one hundred percent certain. Faith is believing in something that doesn't have (according to the individual) as high probability of being true as something that does. Its only a matter of degrees. I happen to feel that most of what we call science fact today will not be science fact in the future.

 

We only manipulate the probabilities! I believe in God. You have faith in science. See?

 

thanks for all your comments

 

; { >

[Buffy]

thanks for all your comments

However you do not wish to comment on my questions? Do you have an explanation for why although philosophers both religious and irreligious throughout history draw a distinction between faith and observation, that somehow we should change the definition? Why did they do this if they are wrong in your mind?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Rsade]

However you do not wish to comment on my questions? Do you have an explanation for why although philosophers both religious and irreligious throughout history draw a distinction between faith and observation, that somehow we should change the definition? Why did they do this if they are wrong in your mind?

 

 

Yes, while I love you as a child of God I also respect your intellect which is keen! So read on sister Buffy...

 

I think that the great thinkers of history and of the present, are only attempting to delineate a hard black and white line where there is no line. Its my personal opinion that that the difference between an observation of an event, then drawing a line , declaring that on one side you have faith in an event is truth , then, on the other side you have facts (science facts or other facts) that these corruptables' or events are true and factual, is one of subjective opinion!

 

I beleive that to declare anything as 100% truth, or fact for that matter, is impossible.

 

Please forgive me If I have not explained this in understandable terms, and If I haven't made myself clear I will give it another shot.

 

Simply put, facts are subjective. That would include any facts. Only the degree of probability of a fact being true determined by the observer would place a truth or lie in either category.

 

; { >

[C1ay]

Nothing is one hundred percent certain.

What an absurd claim, I challenge you to prove it.

[Saitia]

What an absurd claim, I challenge you to prove it.

 

Well this could be fun. I challenge you to prove 100%, i.e., absolutely— to yourself, or anyone else— the reality of life; matter; or motion.:)

If you would, start by explaining how you arrived at absolute certainty about what "reality" and "consciousness" is, I think many of us would be deeply grateful.

 

 

—Saitia

[tarajee]

People ask is there God? Yes certainly He is. I am dead sure He is. [i may clear it that God is not the proper word but actually it is Goda, by the long time passed people shortened the name.] We don’t believe in God because we can’t see Him while I don’t believe in the existence of present things which we see, including the entire universe. Is it not another more amazing a thing? There is no world, no Universe, no Galaxies, no moons no stars. It is all what you see not more than a “dream.” Let us examine the authenticity of the statement. When we examine the process of our present life, we just recognize that all the events of life are going so perfectly, so smoothly that we can’t deny its existence. We touch and we feel all the things of this living world, we experience all the hardships of our life, the glamour of this world etc., but only for the moment we are alive and present in this world. There was world before beginning of my life and no doubt it will remain shining with its present glories, but if I am no more in this world, there is no world, no universe at all. This world and entire universe has no meaning for the dead persons. Another factor just to be counted here is man’s total life period. May be it is more than one hundred year; its actual value is merely equal to a single second. If we could provide a time weighing apparatus, it was easy to know that a single moment of future is heavier than the thousand and thousand years of the past time.

If I may mention here true stories of the past and present disastrous events of the world, it will be only to waste of time. Recently we have experienced the awful happening of the Tsunami disaster. About eleven coastal areas of the countries facing Indian Ocean were involved. An earthquake that measured 8.9 on the Richter Scale of the West Coast on Northern Sumatra set off a series of other earthquakes lasting 12 hours on the 26th of December (from 00:58 to 11:05 UTC), 2004 led to widespread catastrophe particularly in Sri Lanka, India, Maldives, Indonesia and Thailand with damage also in Malaysia, Bangladesh, Somalia and Seychelles. It was a matter of seconds and then there left nothing, but debris and dead bodies, out of a sweet living life of the areas affected. A second before the people were planning their future activities, when suddenly the ocean tides swept away all the glamour of life. Nothing left except dead bodies and debris. A few second before no body could know that they were going to turn into dead bodies. No doubt that we all will face the same situation turn by turn. There is a reality, there is a truth and no one can shake the truth by discussions.

While I am present in this world, no doubt to accept its existence. But when I will pass away from my present life, this world and the entire universe has no meaning for me. Total life period of a person is equal to one second; therefore the total life existence of the entire universe is one second. Thus it is proved logically that entire life existence of the universe is not more than one second. But I request my readers not to be so hasty as to agree with me until you see how I end this article as the moment in our hand has much much value for our future and present life. It can turn our life into endless miseries or it can give us unbelievable pleasures of the eternal life. This single moment of our present life is a turning point

Let us come to the point. I am not going to discuss science theories. So many nice fellows, scientists, thinkers with their valuable knowledge, have gone from this world and so many will be coming in this field to show the world what is behind the curtain. I am not against their efforts; let them do their sacred duty.

I think that it is more important to consider what for is the life and what is the real DANGER to face? Most certainly it is DEATH.

Here I may clear that the death is not an end of the miseries or our problems as we are not going to meet an end of our existence. The process of our existence will continue though the form of the existence will change altogether.

A question arising here is that, “Is it true that we will continue to exist in any form after we die?” For satisfied answer we need some experiments, but it is just not possible. Then we will have to explore the pages of the relevant books from other men of knowledge, scholars, scientists or the prophets, as to know what opinion they have on the subject? As this subject is purely related with the religious kind of a thought, so we will have to consult the Holy books and for this it is most important to solve the first question, “Is there God?”

Yes He is with all His unlimited and so wonderful surprising, powers. He has the total command over and beyond the entire Universe. His existence cannot be specified in words. It is just not possible to catch Him in sight. This should also be considered here that if there is creation, there must be a Creator. Eye sight is meant to see a part of creation only, not for the Creator to see. He wants us to love Him, and in case we exercise our faith in Him, surely He will reward us with His blessings and will help us to overcome the hardships which we nave to face during our present life and after we die. But in case we deny his command then please beware as He claims to read what is hidden in the minds. Here is the point to be alert. He who has power of a kind, always being present in the minds of the swarm of people, surely He will be Allah, s.w.t. or God, as you may name Him. If anyone is capable to maintain a secret personal file to note minutely what is hidden in the deep deep darkness of our conscious then here is point to consider His existence. No doubt the prophets have informed this world a truth about the hardships of the second life. They have no interest indeed, if we go this way or that way. This is the proof, hard like a rock. No doubt they are the messengers of truth, sent by Almighty the Lord of the universe. Certainly they have no interest to mislead the people. If the mind is not so dull, if the conscious is alive, you can make an analysis to bring out in light the facts and realities, mixed with the cooked ideas.

You can find so many books on the subject giving you a full detail about the existence of the Creator of the entire universe, and so many other attachments above the universe. No one can frame the limits of His existence and no one can comprehend the scale of jurisdiction of His powers.

With a slight difference all the faiths of the world have the same version except one great mistake. It is absolutely wrong to give Him [God] a body shape. This is a false idea. He has no son, no father, no mother and no such other relatives. If it is so then surely He will lose his quality of being a supreme power. In such a case, His decisions and orders will always be challenged and this is actually against the facts. He is ALONE and no one is there to give Him chips to go ahead with His planning. He is definitely capable to maintain the existence of His kingdom without any outer help. He has no partner in His kingdom so this idea is utterly baseless that He needs help in any way. In case He has a desire for wife, for son, and so on, then, as a matter of fact, He is bound to have a mother and father to come into existence. There must be a chain of hereditary procedure and this is absolutely against the facts. Can’t you think your such a God will be of a nature having a desire to go to sleep or will be in need of food? This is a kind of deficiency, a kind of weakness. Anyone having such kind of deficiencies is no more God. It is no more than worthless ideas. While you accept that Mr. X is prime minister of the state, then surely you have accepted him with the qualities and powers of minister ship. If you grab his powers then he is no more than an ordinary citizen. If you do not accept Him with the qualities and powers of God ship then better to deny His existence. To be continued. Tarajee

[Buffy]

Oh my, so there are no facts, only faith. So I can walk up to you and hit you over the head and then claim its only your *belief* that I hit you? Not a fact? This is called situational ethics and its normally eschewed by people of faith. That's why *most* people of faith generally agree with the distinction between observation and belief.

 

From a philosophical standpoint, if you cannot have common agreement with other individuals on basic notions of reality, there can be no society. That's probably fine if one lives in a cave outside of Gatlinburg preaching to a congregation of one, but for the rest of us, acceptance of reality is essential to life.

 

I now understand that Rsade's issue with my encouragement to act in a socially acceptable manner was misunderstood because he denies that any interpretation of his positions except his own have any validity whatsoever because they are merely "beliefs." Odd how that denigrates the value of "belief" as well as "fact"...

 

At odds with the ink of the blade, :)

Buffy

[Edella]

Simply put, facts are subjective.

 

Is that a fact?

[Rsade]

What an absurd claim, I challenge you to prove it.

 

 

I would be happy to. First name a subject and then what you would accept as proof.

[Rsade]

Well this could be fun. I challenge you to prove 100%, i.e., absolutely— to yourself, or anyone else— the reality of life; matter; or motion

 

Yes, I agree, most things temporal may seem to be as they are, it was Einstein who said that nothing is as it seems...and even I wont butt heads with my hero Albert E.

[Rsade]

Is that a fact?

 

ummm', no that is a learned ,although very subjective opinion, which must not be confused with fact, because facts, as most of us know facts, don't exist in this universe at this point in our space time line , However, these facts could be considered fact, in the past or future , or even the present, of course, all science facts are subject to change, sometimes as often as I change underwear.

 

However , when new facts arrive one must not assume that present fact, is in fact a fact.... ; } >

 

A bit of levity folks...

[Rsade]

tatagee

 

TaraGEE

 

Taragee, your post was thought provoking and brimmed with original thinking, at least compared to the usual fare.

 

I agree with some of your points , take minor issue with others, and down right disagree with only a few of your opinions.

 

When I read a rather long post such as yours, I must roll it around in my head for a day or two before I make intelligent, and deep thinking (I would hope) comment on the subject matter.

 

I'm going camping this weekend and will take a copy of your post with me.Maybe it will mentally digest amonst the mountain scenes and camp fire...and the blissful lack of cell phonery and the sounds of humanity banging out an existance.....

 

regards and thanks

 

; } >

 

BTW I am an open theist Christian who thinks that the universe and world is large enough to accommodate all belief systems. Jesus was the final word in Christianity and he taught love and acceptance above all else.

[Rsade]

Oh my, so there are no facts, only faith. So I can walk up to you and hit you over the head and then claim its only your *belief* that I hit you? Not a fact?

 

No, not exactly. This concerns the laws of probability. In the event that you expressed there is only you and I . If you are asking my observed facts, I may or not have seen you hit me. There may be a 99.>to the hundredth power probability that you did indeed hit me. However there remains that tiny probability that you didn't hit me. See nearly 100% is not 100%.

 

 

 

This is called situational ethics and its normally eschewed by people of faith. That's why *most* people of faith generally agree with the distinction between observation and belief.

 

The key words in the above sentence are *most* and *generally*, and that is where you will find that tiny fraction at. It is real and applicable if not practical.

 

From a philosophical standpoint, if you cannot have common agreement with other individuals on basic notions of reality, there can be no society. That's probably fine if one lives in a cave outside of Gatlinburg preaching to a congregation of one, but for the rest of us, acceptance of reality is essential to life.

 

 

This is a theoretical assessment of a problem, so society or my congregation would not be exposed to my theories unless the situation called for it.

 

I now understand that Rsade's issue with my encouragement to act in a socially acceptable manner was misunderstood because he denies that any interpretation of his positions except his own have any validity whatsoever because they are merely "beliefs." Odd how that denigrates the value of "belief" as well as "fact"...

 

I have many, many freinds who accept my quirks and are not offended by them. I even get paid to speak...but thats another thread...

 

I cannot and will not enable someone to live in their fantasy land,(of denial of truth) because it harms them.

 

However there are those who cannot and will not accept truth and insist on living in denial, they are truly lost. And that is a pure 99.% > to the hundredth power FACT.

 

 

Thanks Buffy, I enjoy our banter. I would encourage you to free up your thinking and fly, as it is now you are hindering that keen intellect of yours by getting weighted down in personal issues, and then projecting your anger (or distain) attrempting to inflict it upon those who you might learn from.

 

words of edge cut both ways, and I am not bleeding yet.

 

; { >

[cwes99_03]

Jesus was the final word in Christianity and he taught love and acceptance above all else.

Is that a fact? Care to discuss the basis for that in another thread?

 

Anyway, I like your passion, but will have to disagree with your use of the word fact.

 

Fact is something that is true regardless of someone's view of it.

 

If someone hit you over the head with a baseball bat and you (nor anyone else) didn't see it happen, it is still a fact that they did it. Now whether that fact is known or can be proven is still another issue. Thus it can be fact and be believed but not be proven.

 

To know it happened can thus I suppose mean two things (again not changing my answer here, just restating it in another way).

 

I can know something but be unable to prove it without a shadow of a doubt. The shadow however does not make it any less true, nor does my belief in it make it any more true. I can say that the keyboard I am typing on exists, but some philosopher can ask does it really exist or is it just a figment of my imagination (part of the matrix 0.o ). To me I know it to exist, but he can cast a shadow of a doubt. Thus in the courst system the introduced reasonable doubt. Thus a shadow of a doubt is allowed, but the juror is asked to decide if there is reasonable doubt to believe that it could have happened another way.

Does their acquital make it any less true that the crime did not occur? No.

 

Your search for truth can only be what you are willing to accept. There will be naysayers of absolutely just about everything. This does not make the answer any more or less true.