Bush - Bad for the Country

[InfiniteNow]

MINE were never closed....Been doing that as a man ever since I fiirst picked up the concept "heat pollution"...Don't wait for it. Work toward it.

Either you're missing my general point, or you're too filled with hatred and anger to admit it's validity. The possibilities I raised all answered your question about "what might some of those good things be..." I was also sure to acknowledge my absolute distaste for methods of terror, but recognize that some good will come out of any situation even if we are too limited to recognize it.

 

 

I want peace, but not on Osama's terms. I want him dead.

You cannot have both. The moment you choose one, the other evaporates. You cannot wish for the death of another and also state truthfully that you want peace. You must choose which you want more.

 

 

The same way I want the butchers of Dhafur dead, the same way I want the butchers of Mogadishu dead. the same way I want the fools who murdered the innocent in Rwanda dead, the same way I want the butchers in Zimbabwe...you nget the picture?

I do. The picture is that if you truly want these things, you are no better than the target of your anger.

 

 

That coin(war) has many faces, but in the end it comes down to two sides; barbarism and superstition against rationalism and realism.

 

Choose your side which is rationalism and fight to win.

 

I choose to look at the coin edge on... not heads, not tails, but at the coin as a whole.

 

 

Cheers. :cup:

[damocles]

Either you're missing my general point, or you're too filled with hatred and anger to admit it's validity. The possibilities I raised all answered your question about "what might some of those good things be..." I was also sure to acknowledge my absolute distaste for methods of terror, but recognize that some good will come out of any situation even if we are too limited to recognize it.

 

If you mean by general resolution, a final resolution of justice for the oppressed as an outcome as eyes are opened to the ground truth in the middle east or in the misrule in this nation by our own governement, that is not in your power or mine to give. Nor would I give it if I had the power. No slave is given freedom. He earns it for himself or he remains a slave. There are many ways to earn that freedom. Some choose Osama's way. Some choose Bush's way. Others choose Ghandi's or King's. Which men accomplished their ends?

You cannot have both. The moment you choose one, the other evaporates. You cannot wish for the death of another and also state truthfully that you want peace. You must choose which you want more.

 

Some simple words make nonsense of that statement Infinite;

 

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) 49,000,000 ("great leap forward" and "cultural revolution")

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)

Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)

Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)

Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000

Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)

Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000

Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians

Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000

Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000

Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000

Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000

Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000

Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000

Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000

Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000

Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000

Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000

Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?

Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000

Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000

Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000

Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000

Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000

Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?

Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (vietnamese civilians)

Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000

Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000

Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) 30,000 (popular uprising)

Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)

Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)

Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam, 1963-1968) 30,000

Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) 25,000

Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) 20,000

Guy Mollet (France, 1956-1957) 10,000 (war in Algeria)

Paul Koroma (Sierra Leone, 1997) 6,000

Osama bin Laden (worldwide, 1991-2001) 4,000

Augusto Pinochet (Chile, 1973) 3,000

Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala) 2,000

 

I do. The picture is that if you truly want these things, you are no better than the target of your anger.

 

The difference is, Infinite, I want specific living people specifically dead for specific crimes that they specifically committed. It is a recognized principle in rational societies, that the guilty must stand judgement and receive collective social punishment for the evil they do. When that crime is genocide or mass murder? Those people are better off dead. It puts them out of their pathological self-loathing misery. It is to that particular end that I work, and for that SPECIFIC reason, when I address that SPECIFIC individual, as a SPECIFIC case. There is no wish involved. There cannot be. Wishes accomplish nothing.

 

If I am to give a man, like Ayatollah Sistani, a chance to preach the jihad of peace to his brothers, then he must be heard above the din of al Zarqawi and the other disciples of bin Laden.

 

It is just like the case, if we are to repair the damage George W. Bush has done. We must find a fox to replace him in the next election cycle. Chicken. Plucked.

 

I've been following this thread with great interest and I find it to be a great clarifyer of why I suggest that my position is not irrational or uncommon..

 

http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-humanities/6306-moral-algebra.html

 

I choose to look at the coin edge on... not heads, not tails, but at the coin as a whole.

 

I want to thank you for bringing to my attention my incorrect use of an analogy. I was guilty of shortcutting a metaphorical argument and making a faulty presentation. I apologize to you for that. One should never use analogy when one can write plainly as you just did.

 

You cannot look at the whole argument, if you observe both sides and split the difference(see the coin edge on). You must analyze the argument in the form of first "what is the event measured and from which bias?';

1. identify the biases.

2. formulate opposing theses.

3. test against observable effects-based consequences(results).

4. check biases again.

5. apply the antitheses to the consequences observed(events).

6. formulate a new set of theses.

 

And then hopefully draw objective conclusions from those theses.

 

If there is hate anywhere in that process? Well, Ghandi had a lot of anger, but he had a firm grasp of how he intended to fight for what he wanted. Its just that we don't recognize it as him fighting, because we associate fighting with the use of violence.

 

Even the madman, Osama, admits that there are two paths to jihad. The one is the path of peaceful struggle. The other is the path of violence.

 

Osama chose the path of violence.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan-i-Sabah

 

quoting;

 

Given the pillars of devoted adherence to the path of the faith, it is unlikely that the usually accepted "Assassin" postulate is unflawed. Hassan had his son executed for drinking wine and another person was banished form Alamut for playing the flute. The theories of Hassan being associated with Hashish are, at best, debatable. Furthermore there have emerged traces that there was a name given to Alamut by the people with Nizarī leanings: al-Assas "the Base". It was the base for all operations that Hassan wished to effect. Members of al-Assas were known as al-Assasīn.

 

Definitions of Al Qaeda on the Web:

 

* ahl-KY-duh International terrorist network that claimed responsibility for the September 11 attacks; "Al Qaeda means "the base"

school.newsweek.com/misc/pronunciation.php

 

* The US government issued an indictment in November 1998 alleging that Osama bin Laden heads an international terrorist network called "Al Qaeda," an Arabic word meaning "the base." Al Qaeda is blamed for several attacks on US interests, including the 1998 bombing of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen, and the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/teach/alqaeda/glossary.html

 

* Lowercase the al in the name of bin Laden's terrorist network, except starting a line in a headline.

http://www.careerjournaleurope.com/columnists/styleandsubstance/glossary.html

 

* Al-Qaeda ( - al-Qā'idah, "the foundation" or "the base") is the name given to a worldwide network and alliance of militant Islamist organizations. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qaeda

 

That is evil. He used that path to not only kill innocent Americans, but to kill the innocent among islam.

 

So if I want him dead, I admit there is hate involved. It is the hate against evil that I carry within me.

 

What good has he done?

 

Al Capone opened soup kitchens to help the starving of Chicago..

 

Hitler rehabilitated the Berlin Zoo because he didn't want its animals to suffer in deprivation.

 

Stalin kept a dog.

 

Those men were evil.

 

I'm bizarre that way, I suppose. I believe that evil as a concept is as concrete as liberty or good. That it is NOT relative, but can be objectively defined by the generally agreed scale of harm done for negative outcome generated as most men and women see it..

 

Just my 1=1 on things.

 

As always, the best of wishes;

[InfiniteNow]

Your tone has softened a bit since the previous posts, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

 

The difference is, Infinite, I want specific living people specifically dead for specific crimes that they specifically committed.

 

So does he...

 

 

My best as well. :confused:

[IDMclean]

(I'm kinda late into the discussion, and haven't read all that's already been said but I'll say what I will say.)

 

I personally disagree with the methods of both Bush and the Arab people that have attacked in such a manner. I won't say either side is totally at fault, either. As I believe that we as Americans are partially at fault for the whole shibang.

 

I will say that the path of moderation is generally the best path, and Bush true to his name has chosen the path of Violence. This in my mind makes him every bit as wrong as any other. Bush could have responded to the problems presented in a clear, consise and morale way. he chose not to, and now every man, woman and child that dies or suffers from his actions lies in his hands in whole and in part.

 

When we chose to react to violence with violence we become as morally reprehensable. Evil as it is classically defined, does not see it's self as evil. Quiet often it sees it's self in the light of rightousness. Hilter did what he thought was best for himself, and for his people. This does not make his actions right, or any more morale.

 

I am not saying the Osama is any better than us, I am mearly stating that we must walk the Right path. I don't wish to see Osama dead, if I did then I would wish to see Bush dead as well. Rather I wish to see those who commit hanious wrongs to sit and rot, for the rest of eternity, or until they natural expire, in a dark 10X10 room and think about all that they have done for the rest of their days.

 

Iraq

Afghanistan

Final role call for Operation: Enduring Freedom

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/index.php#source

 

The death, wounds, and suffering of every person listed and not listed are the responcibility of Osama, Bush and every other person whom decided to go to war.

 

I never went to war. I do not agree with war in any Violent form. I am not a peace nik, I do believe in ruffly handling people whom have commited violence, I however refuse to drop to their level, I refuse to play their game.

 

Why fight and kill, and maime and hurt and cause suffering, when you could take all that effort and place it else where, into actually productive things. Like Feeding, Housing, Clothing, and Treating people?

 

Like so many people I personally feel that Bush and Osama should simply grow up and act like the human beings they are rather than fling sh** back and forth. All it does is makes a huge mess and garners the resentment of those looking on.

[damocles]

(I'm kinda late into the discussion, and haven't read all that's already been said but I'll say what I will say.)

<snip>

 

Like so many people I personally feel that Bush and Osama should simply grow up and act like the human beings they are rather than fling sh** back and forth. All it does is makes a huge mess and garners the resentment of those looking on.

 

Please don't make the mistake of writing that Bush and bin Laden are morally equivalent.

 

They are not. George Bush is merely incompetent. Osama bin Laden is both incompetent and evil.

 

There is a vast difference.

 

As always, the best of wishes:

[Racoon]

Osama bin Laden is both incompetent and evil.

 

 

Osama is far from Incompetent! On the contrary...He's brilliant.

Why haven't we found him?

Thats not incompetence, but rather intelligence...ability to lead and use others.

 

I won't defend his morality however...:esmoking:

 

But lets remember one thing:

One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter.

[damocles]

Osama is far from Incompetent! On the contrary...He's brilliant.

Why haven't we found him?

Thats not incompetence, but rather intelligence...ability to lead and use others.

 

I won't defend his morality however...:esmoking:

 

But lets remember one thing:

One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter.

 

I tend to shy away from strategy as it gets me into trouble but;

 

http://bookclub.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/16/16936/5083

 

quoting;

 

Miscalculations (theirs & ours)

 

By Spencer Ackerman | bio

 

When Peter says he aimed to paint "a more comprehensive portrait" of Osama bin Laden, he's not kidding. For me, perhaps the most fascinating element of the portrait that emerges in Peter's book concerns bin Laden's capacity for miscalculation. For over four years, we've grown used to seeing bin Laden as either a cartoonish fanatic or a diabolical mastermind. The Osama bin Laden I Know details instead many of bin Laden's false moves. We get bin Laden's incompetence as a battlefield commander; his hubristic break with former mentor Abdullah Azzam, the charismatic Islamist who globalized the Afghan jihad against the Soviets; his misguided alliance with the sadistic Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against the brilliant military leader Ahmed Shah Massoud; etc. That impulse to miscalculate is something Peter highlights in the book, and it raises an unexplored question for the war against bin Laden's jihadist movement: Can we count on bin Laden to keep on, well, screwing up, even when it initially looks like he's advancing his objectives? For instance, Peter writes that 9/11 was in fact "a strategic disaster" for al-Qaeda, as it resulted in the loss of Afghanistan, "the best base it ever had," in a matter of months.

 

But is bin Laden really so poor a strategist? Put another way, I wonder if the biggest question in the war on terror is whose miscalculations are more consequential--theirs or ours.

 

For an example of bin Laden's dubious strategic thinking, consider his October 2001 prediction that a U.S. invasion of Afghanistan would "cause great long-term economic burdens which will force America to resort to ... withdrawal from Afghanistan, disintegration, and contraction." This incorrect prediction appears to have informed al-Qaeda's decision to attack the U.S. on 9/11. Bin Laden was wrong about miring the U.S. in an Afghan quagmire. Unfortunately, if you substitute "Iraq" for "Afghanistan" in bin Laden's October 2001 boast, he's a lot less wrong. (Not that Iraq will mean our national "disintegration.") As a force to breathe new life into al-Qaeda, the invasion of Iraq worked wonders--the suicide tape of Mohammed Sidique Khan, mastermind of the 7/7 London bombings, testifies to this--and something like that may have been bin Laden's actual goal for 9/11 all along.

Drawing the U.S. into indiscriminate or disproportionate responses to 9/11 is--as Peter details elsewhere in the book--a means for bin Laden to galvanize the Muslim world into an Islamist awakening, which has been al-Qaeda's ultimate, grandiose objective since its 1988 founding. Bin Laden lieutenant Saif al-Adel was recently quoted as saying 9/11 was intended "to prompt [the U.S.] to come out of its hole. ... A person will react randomly when he receives painful strikes on his head from an undisclosed enemy. Such strikes will force the person to carry out random acts and provoke him to make serious and sometimes fatal mistakes." You can call this post-hoc justification--especially after al-Qaeda's loss of Afghanistan--but that doesn't make it an incorrect reading of our own false moves in the war on terrorism.

 

Yet if we squander opportunities that al-Qaeda hands us, the jihadists do the same thing. Exhibit A is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Over the last year-plus, bin Laden's man in Iraq has opened fissures between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi Sunni insurgency, thanks to his indiscriminate civilian murders and imposition of austere versions of Islam contrary to local customs. In the absence of a U.S. occupation (big caveat, there) it's not so easy to establish a beachhead for al-Qaeda in the Sunni areas of Iraq when the heavily-armed locals curse Zarqawi's name, as they did after the Ramadi bombing earlier this month. Yet, according to Ayman Zawahiri's recent letter to Zarqawi, this is exactly what al-Qaeda's leadership is banking on. I tend to see that as pretty good news.

 

Zawahiri's letter is a plea for Zarqawi to stop alienating the very Muslims al-Qaeda seeks to radicalize. After Zarqawi's November attacks on Amman, Jordanians responded with a torrent of anti-Qaedist rage. Indeed, another section of Peter's book describes bin Laden's awareness of how precarious al-Qaeda's own hearts-and-minds campaign is: bin Laden fears that a frontal assault on the legitimacy of the "ruler's sheikhs" who backstop the Saudi royal family will fail, given that al-Qaeda would be fighting against 70 years of popular indoctrination. Better then, he reasons, to fight the U.S.--which everyone can sign on for!--and in the process, inculcate his recruits with anti-Saudi fervor. Zarqawi's diversion from the script shows how difficult is for al-Qaeda to control the nihilism that it's unleashed. The question, though, is whether and how the U.S. can take advantage of such mistakes--or whether we'll make even worse ones.

 

Spencer Ackerman writes about intelligence and national security for The New Republic.

 

The Iraq war was a HUGE mistake. Pakistan and Afghanistan were/are the centers of gravity of the current war as is Saudi Arabia. I won't bore you with the long details but if your are interested, GOOGLE islamic proslytization. See where the money is and where the madras school infrastructure began and HOW LONG AGO.

 

Now then. If you want to know who is running the Al Qaeda war? It's al Zawalhiri. It is not bin Laden, the front man who couldn't even plan a successful campaign in Afghanistan, without CIA and ISI advisors showing him how.

 

As always, the best of wishes.

[IDMclean]

As my rant was supposed to convey, I not only put them on the same moral pedestal, I put Bush on the same pedestal as Hitler and Saddam.

 

Now this isn't localized to just this era or this president, infact i would extend my judgement to include a vast number of previous presidents.

 

May I point out, in a throughly used fashion, that Saddam and Osama were our responsibilities? That they were on the USA payroll? They had what they had because we gave it to them.

 

You know who the biggest arms dealer in the world is?

 

I'm not much for conspiracy, however I wouldn't put it past our people and goverment to have setup this whole thing. How are we to know, for certain, that our president didn't order the Sept 11th thing?

 

Our goverment lacks the nessary transparency. We maintain an illegal Army, we defie world concearns.

 

Bush has done so much harm to the USA people and the World as a whole that I am highly skeptical that the damage done will get fixed anytime soon.

 

In my mind bush has done NOTHING for us, he puts our beautiful country to shame, him, Clinton, Bush sr., raygun, and on and on and on...

 

It all has to change, we need to stop this bullshit before it REALLY gets out of hand. At this rate I predict either a major world war or a rapid decline for the USA in the next 30 years.

 

You know the cold war? We're still in it, and at this rate we will most likely suffer the same fate that the Soviet Union suffered when they EXITED the cold war.

 

You want change? Be the change you want to see.

[damocles]

As my rant was supposed to convey, I not only put them on the same moral pedestal, I put Bush on the same pedestal as Hitler and Saddam.<snip>

 

You want change? Be the change you want to see.

 

1=1 my friend. I know the history far better than you think I do. And I am sad that you see the United States in the light that you do.

 

This nation is not evil, nor has it ever been.

 

I suppose you think we were evil when we stopped the tyrants of fascism?

I suppose you think we were evil when we fought the tyrants of communism?

I suppose you think we are evil when we fight the tyrants of Ba'athism?

I suppose you think we are evil when we fight the tyrants of the Taliiban and their ilk?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baathist

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

 

You don't need to try to tell me anything about the things the US did in the last fifty years. (The fact that I know of these events shows that our government is far more transparent than you write or believe.).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh

 

Despite that, the US has been a force for good in the world. Without the US in the breach holding back the tides of barbarism for the last 100 years, you wouldn't even have this tool by which to post your 1=1.

 

Peace upon you my friend;

[Michaelangelica]

The Iraq war was a HUGE mistake. Pakistan and Afghanistan were/are the centers of gravity of the current war as is Saudi Arabia.

See where the money is and where the madras school infrastructure began and HOW LONG AGO.

.

So true

The USA/CIA lost interest in Afghanistan after they (& Saudi money) kicked out the Soviets. This left a power vacuum and civil war (with lots of leftover weapons including Stingers). This enabled Bin Laden to establish himself in Afganistan

 

Massoud was the best bet by far, for a moderate leader of Afghanistan.

The CIA hung him out to dry. The CIA and Pakistan starved him of resources and finally, just as the CIA were realising what a gem (for a warlord) he was, Bin Laden assassinated him.

Then we got to keep the neanderthal Taliban.

It's all to sad by far.:xx:

[IDMclean]

I am not saying, evil. For true evil never see itself as such. the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

 

This nation is not evil, nor has it ever been.

 

I suppose you think we were evil when we stopped the tyrants of fascism?

I suppose you think we were evil when we fought the tyrants of communism?

I suppose you think we are evil when we fight the tyrants of Ba'athism?

I suppose you think we are evil when we fight the tyrants of the Taliiban and their ilk?

 

No I don't. I think our officials are morally questionable due to the vast multitude of wrongs that have been commited upon the people of this beautiful little orb. I see us heading in a direction that I don't think anyone wants us to head in. Given our current path, I wouldn't be surprised if the USA became the Confederate Empire of the Americas, or something similar.

 

All that we have "accomplished" in the past five decades could have been accomplished in far more moral ways with better results. Instead we hire people like Bin Laden, arm them to the teeth and have them shoot the crap out of anything and anyone we don't like.

 

I came to the conclusion that the USA Goverment is a criminal orginization. It may have been a representive democracy, but it has since become something greatly different, each passing day it seems that we slip further and further into a police state, wasting our resources to hunt down pot smoking hippies.

 

We are the laughing stock of the Sociological world. Here we have this huge wealth and what do we do with it? Make sh** to blow other places up.

 

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

 

It frustrates me so much, we could have universal health care, tax payed college education, subsidised Housing and food. We could meet the basic needs of EVERY person on the planet, but no we have to have people whom want to blow the sh** out of everything and can't thinking of anything not two feet in front of their faces...

 

My mental alarms tell me that if we, as a whole, continue to move in the direction we are currently headed we will be come the fascist that we purpound to fight. If you studied your histroy and compared it to the current regime you might find that we have way to many similarities with Stalin and Hitler.

 

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

 

Think what you want, do as you wish and reap the rewards your actions.

 

When I was in grade school I saw all this happening, before that even I had decided that I was not an american. I am a being of the planet Earth, I live for myself and the people as a whole. My actions are choosen in the interest of ALL people, not just my interests or that of my friends and family. I don't see a us versus them.

 

Bush himself said: "United we stand, divided we fall." To me it looks like we are doing the latter.

 

This is all IMHO.

[Freddy]

:( They wanted to impeach Clinton for committing perjury in his testimony in the Paula Jones case. There are plenty of people serving 5 year sentences now for lying about their lover while under oath. Clinton should have been treated the same. Perjury is perjury, quit trying to say it isn't. Clinton lied under oath in a court of law and he was disbarred for it. He is a perjurer, no ifs, ands or buts.

 

Bush did not lie about Iraq having WMD. Bush was lied to about Iraq having WMD and passed on what he was told. For that matter, small traces of WMD have been found since we went there so we don't even know if they did or did not have any activity at this time on that subject. We may never know. The claim that he knew Iraq did not, for a fact, have WMD and told the people otherwise is an unsubstantiated, unprovable claim at this point. Feel free to prove otherwise.

 

At this point there is no proof that Valerie Plame was even undercover. It is known that she had not had any clandestine assignments for over 5 years and her friends and family knew what she did for a living. The special prosector has not been able to even prove that any such crime even occured. You should wait for more convincing proof before passing judgement on this one. Feel free to provide such proof if you have it though.

 

Tom Delay made his own bed, Bush had nothing to do with it so put the blame where the blame is due.

 

Bush is somewhat of a moron but trying to pin things on him that he is simply not guilty of does little to support your case.

 

I did not read the entire thread to see if anyone corrected you but I will. Clinton was charged with 4 articles of impeachment by the full House. The first 2 charges dealt with perjury and Monica Lewinski where both were approved by the House. The other 2 charges dealt with perjury and Paula Jones, where both were defeated by the House. Clinton stood trial over Monica not Paula. Show me a person in the US who has served 5 years in prison for lying about an affair.

[damocles]

I am not saying, evil. For true evil never see itself as such. the road to hell is paved in good intentions.<snip>

 

My mental alarms tell me that if we, as a whole, continue to move in the direction we are currently headed we will be come the fascist that we purpound to fight. If you studied your histroy and compared it to the current regime you might find that we have way to many similarities with Stalin and Hitler.

 

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

 

When I was in grade school I saw all this happening, before that even I had decided that I was not an american. I am a being of the planet Earth, I live for myself and the people as a whole. My actions are choosen in the interest of ALL people, not just my interests or that of my friends and family. I don't see a us versus them.

 

Bush himself said: "United we stand, divided we fall." To me it looks like we are doing the latter.

 

This is all IMHO.

 

1. I don't have to study the history, K. I lived much of it. Read my profile.

 

2. I read by yours that you are a young person.

 

3. That is a glorious opportunity for you to correct the many mistakes that people, like me, made in the world, in our pasts.

 

4. But lest you think that you have learned all the answers, let me ask you a few questions.

 

5. Have you been outside the United States to a relatively free nation, like Turkey?

 

6. Have you been to Egypt?

 

7. Have you been to say a prosperous country, like Germany?

 

8. Have you been to Korea?

 

9. Have you been across the United States to New York, or to Florida, or to Virginia, or to Kentucky, or to Kansas or to Texas or to Georgia?:

 

10. Have you been to France?

 

11. Have you been to Ireland?

 

12. Did you ever have to leave an aircraft over the ocean because the silly thing's engines decided to catch on fire?

 

13. Have you worked alongside your country's soldiers in time of peace, in time of disaster, in time of war?

 

14. Have you ever participated in a civil rights march for what you believed or had to fight to save what you personally hold near and dear, both non-violently when you could, and violently when some criminal or politician gave you no choice?

 

15. Have you ever come to the aid of another person at the risk of your own life?

 

16. Have you ever worked on a project so hard, a project so vital, that you saw one of your co-workers die, but you had to put that event aside because the project was so important, that you understood that people(including you) could die and would die, and there was nothing to be done for it-for it was that necessary? The mission/project success outcome was the only all consuming need to insure the community's future survival?

 

That is what the people of my generation did and still do, K., mistakes and all.

 

Peace be upon you, my friend;

[damocles]

I did not read the entire thread to see if anyone corrected you but I will. Clinton was charged with 4 articles of impeachment by the full House. The first 2 charges dealt with perjury and Monica Lewinski where both were approved by the House. The other 2 charges dealt with perjury and Paula Jones, where both were defeated by the House. Clinton stood trial over Monica not Paula. Show me a person in the US who has served 5 years in prison for lying about an affair.

 

Not five years, but;

 

quoting;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E7D91439F937A25751C0A963948260&sec=&pagewanted=print

 

February 14, 1985

Parsons Jailed for Perjury COLUMBIA, S.C., Feb. 13 (UPI) - Pam Parsons, the former women's basketball coach at the University of South Carolina, and Tina Buck, one of her former players, were sentenced to four months in prison today for lying to a Federal jury during a libel trial. United States District Judge Clyde Hamilton sentenced each of them to three years in prison but suspended all but four months of each term.

 

They will be on probation for five years. They will report to a Federal prison in Lexington, Ky., later this month. Judge Hamilton presided over Miss Parsons's unsuccessful $75 million libel suit against Time Inc. Miss Parsons sued after a February 1982 article in Sports Illustrated depicted her as a lesbian involved in a love affair with the player. Judge Hamilton ordered a federal perjury investigation after conflicting testimony during the nine-day trial last May. Both women pleaded guilty to perjury charges in November, admitting they lied during the trial about frequenting a Salt Lake City lesbian nightclub. Both Miss Parsons and Miss Buck apologized in court today for their perjury.

 

The precedent for felony perjury conviction in a civil action is well established in the US federal justice system.

 

Clinton was in very real danger of a felony perjury charge, if he had not settled the Paula Jones lawsuit.

 

As always, the very best of wishes.

[Michaelangelica]

the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

 

No I don't. I think our officials are morally questionable due to the vast multitude of wrongs that have been committed upon the people of this beautiful little orb.

All that we have "accomplished" in the past five decades could have been accomplished in far more moral ways with better results. Instead we hire people like Bin Laden, arm them to the teeth and have them shoot the crap out of anything and anyone we don't like.

 

I came to the conclusion that the USA Government is a criminal organization. It may have been a Representative democracy, but it has since become something greatly different, each passing day it seems that we slip further and further into a police state, wasting our resources to hunt down pot smoking hippies. Here we have this huge wealth and what do we do with it? Make sh** to blow other places up.

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

 

It frustrates me so much, we could have universal health care, tax payed college education, subsidised Housing and food. We could meet the basic needs of EVERY person on the planet,

 

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Think what you want, do as you wish and reap the rewards your actions.

I am a being of the planet Earth, I live for myself and the people as a whole.

I made this post recently.

I probably should't have but occasionally I get angry

"Re: You are called upon by the next President of the United States to head up a.... - 05-11-2006, 06:30 PM

The first thing I would do would be let out the poor silly Australian who has been locked up and tortured in a tiny cell in Guantanamo Bay without charge for 5 years

The second thing I would do is close Guantanamo Bay and other illegal CIA jails

and start acting like a Democracy that respected Human Rights.

(not acting like another China)"

 

It is sad for me to read your post. In a country which is so patriotic. (Australians suspect patriotism as a device for political manipulation. We are not as patriotic as you are although the present fascist Govenment is encouraging it.)

When I visited America (mainly to see Disneyland) I came away thinking your country has the BEST and the WORST of everything. The only way I could get a simple handle on everything - the richest people I had ever seen. The poorest people I had ever seen. I was treated with enormous generosity by the people i met. This in States where you could starve if you lost your job.(Well maybe not starve because of federal food stamps- just die of exposure)

 

I recently got an Amnesty brochure that ranks the USA only after China in the number of legal executions. What does that tell you?

Now we see that the CIA has a dozens illegal jails around the world

Remember I live in a Glass House but

I think we have already lost the war on Terror. What sort of example do we give the Islamic world? (They are horrified by what Hollywood is producing).

i abhor fundamentalism in the Islamic world but i am just as horrified and frightened by American (US) fundamentalism

What sort of "democratic" example are we setting by ignoring the rule of law and restricting the human rights of our own citizens?

I am saddened by all this and your post but remember too you do have the Best of Everything and don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Michael

PS

Help poor, silly Hicks (He is no terrorist) here:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign.asp?campaign_id=5

The British, Spanish, and French Governments have all refused to allow their citizens to be tried in Guantanamo Bay. The Britiish Attorney-General has even demanded the "symbol of injustice" be closed down.

But our Government sits on its hands. John Howard is visiting the US next week. Send the message today - an Australian's right to a fair trial is no joke.

 

See the paranoia in my country here:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign.asp?campaign_id=30

 

Amnesty is a candle in the dark

http://www.amnesty.org/

[Freddy]

Not five years, but;

 

quoting;

 

 

The precedent for felony perjury conviction in a civil action is well established in the US federal justice system.

 

Clinton was in very real danger of a felony perjury charge, if he had not settled the Paula Jones lawsuit.

 

As always, the very best of wishes.

The perjury was for lying about going to a club and not about an affair. They served 4 months. Clinton was railroaded as it was no ones business about who he had sex with. I never voted for him or Bush. At least Clinton can say he did not kill several thousand US boys in Iraq for a lie.

[GAHD]

While Clinton was inded an interesting president (his sex life cost HOW MUCH to investigate??) I'm thinking we should turn this back to bush. For that reason I present Doug McIntyre's "AN APOLOGY FROM A BUSH VOTER" which I have just recently had the pleasure of reading.

 

"I wasn’t sure about the Texas Governor. He had name recognition and a lot of money behind him, but other than that? What? Still, I was sick of all the Clinton shenanigans and the thought of President Gore was… unthinkable. So, GWB became my guy...But in the months and years since shock and awe I have been shocked repeatedly by a consistent litany of excuses, alibis, double-talk, inaccuracies, bogus predictions, and flat out lies. I have watched as the President and his administration changed the goals, redefined the reasons for going into Iraq, and fumbled the good will of the world and the focus necessary to catch the real killers of September 11th." it goes on

 

If he ever has the fortune to read this post I'd like to say to Mr. McIntyre: Thanks for the apology, I'm shure the rest world is just as happy as me that you're sorry for supporting a madman who authorises the use of radioactive bullets. :hihi: