The Afterlife.

[Buffy]

Oh boy. I read all of "Worlds in Collision" thinking it was a really weird narrative style of SciFi--which is why I read it at all, I normally don't like SciFi that much--and only afterward did I find out he was *serious*!

 

It was entertaining though!

 

The truth of today was the heresy of yesterday. Therefore, dare, :lol:

Buffy

[Turtle]

...Also, there were supposedly ancient mines unearthed in south africa and the artifacts found suggested it dated more than 200,000 yrs. This seems to be parallel with ancient sumerian texts that mentioned of mines called 'Underworld' of the gods, literally located on the 'lower' portion of the world south of the mesapotamian ancient sumeria. However, if one probed much deeper, although the sumerian civilization was considered the oldest, it may actually be the most recent instead upon considering sources that dated even during the predeluvian era and older. Plato's legend of hermaphroditic ancestors was very much older than biblical genesis, though it seems the creation myth of the indigenous people's I had read seemed yet to be the oldest.

 

The oldest extant >>>> :lol: Epic of Gilgamesh

[rocket art]

As I kept reminding before, I tend to be an independent thinker, and to outrightly disregard an idea just because majority found it fashionable to do so, is not my approach. As mentioned before I may not agree with Velikovsky's time frame and other things, but that won't be the cause as to be less susceptible to the other essence of the matter. Ancient mythologies were referred to in symbols because there were yet scientific languages to describe it.

 

I remembered some accounts in myth that may also be much older. In some myths, the greek account of the bearing forth of the gods may be an explanation of how planets were formed. Meanwhile, in sumerian myth, the cutting of the dragon Tiamat whose 2 parts became the heavens and the Earth may imply the possibility that the asteroid belt and Earth may once had been a single planet, until a very large foreign body ( a warrior in Sumerian legends) intervened. Such event may eventually be revealed and connected with the Mayan calendar in the future of 2012.

 

I'm curious about Enkidu in the epic of Gilgamesh, perhaps the creature was a homo erectus (?).

 

By the way, the thread was supposedly about 'afterlife' rather than mythologies.

[InfiniteNow]

As I kept reminding before, I tend to be an independent thinker, and to outrightly disregard an idea just because majority found it fashionable to do so, is not my approach.

I didn't reject it because it was fashionable, I rejected it because it was complete and udder nonsense. A water tornado between the earth and mars as a result of gravity... I'm still laughing.

 

By the way, the thread was supposedly about 'afterlife' rather than mythologies.

 

Yes, you are correct, and I thank you for reminding us all of this.

 

IMO, in the afterlife, we exist much the same as we do in the duringlife... In the collective minds of others. The difference is our mind has been subtracted from that collective.

 

I am a memory of a thought not yet formed. :shade:

[REASON]

IMO, in the afterlife, we exist much the same as we do in the duringlife... In the collective minds of others. The difference is our mind has been subtracted from that collective.

 

I am a memory of a thought not yet formed.

 

Well stated. It reminds me of how important it is to leave a good and lasting impression.

[somebody]

I really do like believing in idea of afterlife, but i also don't like visualizing myself being in somewhat "heaven":) (for me, the idea of being in heaven is too boring) . I just think there is something else after you die.

 

As for the ghosts, no doubt about their existence. MOst people say that ghosts exists becuase they have some unfinished business in their life or there were murdered. IF this is the case then how come we don't hear from germans about the ghosts of jewish people, who died in holocaust?

 

All in all, i think there is "life" after death which includes staying in existence as ghosts, going to heaven, being reborn or something else that we havent come across.

[TheBigDog]

There are many theories about the afterlife. I see its purpose in bringing some peace of mind to the living who may worry about it. Some turn it into great personal motivation, and lead better lives for the belief. Others use it as an excuse for evil, letting speculation taken as fact impact the lives of the living in negative ways. Others see it as an opportunity to profit from those seeking a meaningful afterlife, and willing to pay for it now.

 

I would pose this question specifically about the afterlife: Is it safe to say that all unprovable things are equally valid? Or should we find some method of determining the value of an afterlife belief?

 

Bill

[rocket art]

I didn't reject it because it was fashionable, I rejected it because it was complete and udder nonsense. A water tornado between the earth and mars as a result of gravity... I'm still laughing.

 

I gotta reply to this. Personally, I don't visualize it like a water tornado though, it's probably at a much more subparticle, intricate level. I'm curious whether the hydrogen atom comprises certain quantity in outer space. Even the indigenous myth didn't portray it as any form of water tornado either, it's more like transferring 'data' for creating life. Water, undisputably, is often a harbinger of life.

 

 

 

As for the afterlife, I'd contribute my view that such concepts as heaven or hell is relative to the Collective Unconscious of individuals. So, if vast followers in Christianity believe in the existence of hell or heaven (or some higher dimensional planetary plane), their collective thought may actually create a hell in the afterlife solely for them; but such belief should not be forcefully shoved to other Collective that believe in another scenery of Afterlife. Similarly, at a lower dimensional physical reality, so would our collective thoughts create for us cities and civilizations and politics to live on. Eventually it will revolve in the Ideals that define us as higher sentient beings, with the intangible values such as Justice or Freedom, or Hope to the otherwise unprovable things one is yet to encounter.

 

I believe that Consciousness is a manifestation that exists beyond lightspeed or the unit of a rest mass, and any material physicality is dependent with the observation and manipulation of the observer.

[CraigD]

I didn't reject it because it was fashionable, I rejected it because it was complete and udder nonsense. A water tornado between the earth and mars as a result of gravity... I'm still laughing.

I gotta reply to this. Personally, I don't visualize it like a water tornado though, it's probably at a much more subparticle, intricate level.

 

Moving water between 2 planets in a way that first reduces it to subparticles (a proton-electron, plasma) is much less plausible to me than a way that keeps it as a liquid, because of the energy required to do so. A quick calculation based on the mass of the ocean (1.4 *10^21 kg), the ionizing energies of H and O (1311300 and 84078000 J/mol) and the Earth’s total solar power (1.74 *10^17 W) reveals that if 100% of this power could somehow be utilized, ionizing the ocean would take about 1.3 million years.

 

Even though I think it’s less implausible for liquid water to have moved from Mars to Earth, it still seems very implausible to me. For water to flow from Mars (mass=0.107, radius=.533 Earth) to Earth, their surfaces must be closer than about 0.63 Earth radii (about 25,000 km). For this to have happened, and the planets to have later moved to their current orbits, where the closest they come is about 75,000,000 km, would require some very weird orbital maneuvering, and a minimum of about 10^41 J of energy. This is a huge amount of energy - about 8 million years of the total power of the sun!

I'm curious whether the hydrogen atom comprises certain quantity in outer space.

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in outer space, making up about 75% of the mass of the know universe, a ratio that’s roughly accurate for the interplanetary space of the solar system. In contrast, Earth’s is mostly nitrogen (78% by volume), with only a trace (0.00006%) of hydrogen. Mars’s is mostly CO2 (95%), with even less trace hydrogen than Earth. Gas giant planets like Jupiter are very unlike small rocky ones like Earth and Mars, with about the same 75% hydrogen as interplanetary space.

[rocket art]

Your scientific approach regarding the mythological concern about water from Mars, and about hydrogen is highly appreciated, thanks. So then if indeed during the earliest of times, although seemingly improbable, it may not necessarily be impossible for such a fantastic event to happen, and the myth of the indigenous peoples in our area may have some basis to it. So far, theirs may seem to be among oldest attempt at explaining the creation of life on our planet.

[InfiniteNow]

So then if indeed during the earliest of times, although seemingly improbable, it may not necessarily be impossible for such a fantastic event to happen, and the myth of the indigenous peoples in our area may have some basis to it.

Your comment here has just reminded me of a line delivered by Jim Carey in the movie Dumb & Dumber. :lol:

 

 

"So you're tellin' me there's a chance..." :cup:

[rocket art]

Your comment here has just reminded me of a line delivered by Jim Carey in the movie Dumb & Dumber. :lol:

 

 

"So you're tellin' me there's a chance..." :cup:

 

I'm curious about your reaction, when I'm pointing out a probability and a mere requirement to be open minded, and not claiming to monopolize any concept of truth just as most violent desert religions that we so know of often do.

 

But such reaction may not be surprising, because at the coming moments when there's need to be aware of other sources of knowledge, as the internet age explodes with informations long kept hidden, the obsolete conventional paradigms will be challenged again, and again, and again...and again...

 

Isn't this the very essence that makes science great? Unless conventional podiums are being guarded by mediocrity. The arrogance by some that disregard the relevance of the knowledge handed by olden ancestors, should do rethinking. With the tool of science, the classical aspects, just as it had occured in the renaissance of a civilization, must be re-assesed.

 

The ancient sumerians (although I consider their civilization, supposedly the oldest, to be more recent to compare with other sources) somehow had explanation on their mythology about such massive energy that shook the heavens, by implying the presence of another massive, literally out-of-this-world force: a very large planet the size of Neptune that comes every 3600 years. Strange, but it also coincided with the mayan calendar (known for its accuracy) that ends by 2012.

[Turtle]

I'm curious about your strange reaction, when I'm pointing out a probability and a mere requirement to be open minded, and not claiming to monopolize any concept of truth just as most violent desert religions that we so know of often do.

 

But such reaction may not be surprising, because at the coming moments when there's need to be aware of other sources of knowledge, as the internet age explodes with informations long kept hidden, the obsolete conventional paradigms will be challenged again, and again, and again...and again...

 

Isn't this the very essence that makes science great? Unless conventional podiums are being guarded by mediocrity. The arrogance of some that disregard the relevance of the knowledge handed by olden ancestors, should rethink. With the tool of science, the classical aspects, just as it had occured in the renaissance of a civilization, must be re-assesed.

 

The ancient sumetians somehow had explanation to such massive energy that shook the heavens, by implying the presence of another massive, literally out-of-this-world force, a very large planet the size of Neptune that comes every 3600 years. Strange, but it also coincided with the mayan calendar (known for its accuracy) that ends by 2012.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/9410-biotheology.html

:cup:

 

PS I heard that around 2012 the solar system crosses the galactic plane. :lol:

[TheBigDog]

RA, there is folklore and there is fact. Reading too much into folklore is very tempting. Intelligent people such as yourself can rathionalize almost anything into a hypothetical remote possibility. Respecting and following folklore is a fine way of tuning your own moral compass, but hanging onto such beleifs as science in the face of overwhelming factual evidence is a sign of using abandonment of reason.

 

It is not closed minded to accept facts and move on. It is closed minded to reject facts in support of a desperate wish for something else to be true.

 

Bill

[CraigD]

The ancient sumerians (although I consider their civilization, supposedly the oldest, to be more recent to compare with other sources) somehow had explanation on their mythology about such massive energy that shook the heavens, by implying the presence of another massive, literally out-of-this-world force: a very large planet the size of Neptune that comes every 3600 years.

Rocket art, what is your source of information for this claim about Sumerian mythology? It contradicts everything I know of Sumerian mythology.

 

Because the Sumerians wrote lasting records, their mainstream universe model is known in some detail. This model has the mother goddess Nammu, who has the physical form of an endless sea, creating a circular land, Ki, the earth goddess, covered by a hard but flexible shell, An, the sky god. The union of Ki and An creates Enlil, the air god, who lifts An into a great dome covering Ki, providing a wide open place for everything and everybody to live.

 

Although An is studded with the Sun, Moon, planets, and star gods, some of which come down to interact with affairs on Ki (as described in the many Sumerian epics, and repeated in the legends of many later cultures), it’s not a model that allows for the motion of planets as we now understand them, nor one that allows the sky gods to have a lot of material of any kind, such as the Mars-Earth ocean swap Velikovsky proposes. Everthing substantial is draw up from vast wet Nammu, not thin heavenly Ki.

 

Ancient universe models, such as those the Sumerians documented when they developed writing, are, IMHO, beautiful explanations that served ancient people well in helping them understand reality and cope with everyday life. They are very different, however, from later and current models. Attempting to support extraordinary modern claims using ancient models is, I think, a bad idea, unhelpful to either the old or the new models.

[rocket art]

Craig, I was wondering if you have read or heard about Zecharia Sitchin (although I do not necessarily agree in some of his theories, especially pertaining to the pyramids; like Velikovsky, he tends to limit his perspective by subjectively basing on religious background). He mentioned about the battle between Marduk and the dragon Tiamat and the resulting defeat of the latter being cut off with the upper part formed into the heavens and the lower into Earth. He suggested a theory that proposed the asteroid belt and our Earth may had been from a single larger planet, courtesy, again as I mentioned before, of another heavenly body. He also supported it with technical basis in his book. I'm also curious about the consistency of a creation myth by another of the indigenous tribe in our place, the Samals (the other indigenous people I mentioned before also lived in our place, Davao). They also had seemingly similar account with the ancient Sumerians.

 

Curiously Sitchin mentioned about this other large planet to revolve around the sun every 3600 years and may be on its way back to Earth's vicinity by 2012 (which coincided with Mayan calendar). I did a simple subtraction to it and strangely it dated back to the time of the biblical parting of the Red Sea with Moses. Somehow, its presence seemed to be instrumental to events of other myths such as the Great Flood, biblical Adam and Eve, and by my personal research, even Santa Claus(!).

 

BigD, reason is indeed a very important tool, but it is limited only on the quantity and availability of data to support it. The point is to gather as much data and access as possible for reason to be more effective. I am not being subjective, but rather perceiving ancient knowledge relative to the level of knowledge humanity has so far achieved in the modern times.

 

Neither am I insisting that those myths are true, but there are many more things I had in mind that existing science cannot yet explain, and the human capacity is not limited to the left hemisphered reason alone for there are still other capacity that we can do. I do not reject facts, and neither do I reject myths simply due to limited facts.

[REASON]

rocket art,

 

I'm having a difficult time understanding how all of this discussion about about acient Sumarian myths and water transmission between Mars and Earth relates to the topic at hand...The Afterlife. Can you, or anyone else in this forum for that matter, provide any plausible processes, mechanisms, transformations, or evidence of any kind that would allow our human consciousness to be carried on to another existance once we have died?

 

Personnally, I would think it impossible considering the only ones who would have any information of the sort are already dead...and they're not talking. Beyond that, it's pure speculation and conjecture.