Intelligent Design POLL

[Racoon]

I am open-minded. I will listen to any argument and to its evidence and supporting logic. I will give benefit of any doubt. Then I will analyze.

 

You've been sitting next to the Balonium too long Pyrotex. :cup:

 

Time to go back up to the Hollo-Deck, and work the electrogravitic tramhooks. :)

 

Whatever it is you're smoking, I want some. :)

[Pyrotex]

You've been sitting next to the Balonium too long Pyrotex. :hihi:

Time to go back up to the Hollo-Deck, and work the electrogravitic tramhooks. :D

Whatever it is you're smoking, I want some. :)

ROTFLMAO :estrange: :edizzy: :eswirl: :ebomb: :hyper:

 

...balonium good...

 

...I'll drop some in the mail... :confused:

[MagnetMan]

Just like there is a respectful working relationship between modern medical surgeons and witchdoctors? I don't think this is ever gonna happen. Dream on. Case in point, again.

 

I would love to engage you in a serious discussion, MM, but if you're gonna bring in Unicorns to every discussion, it's just not gonna happen. :confused:

 

Thirty years ago, Dr Adrian Boshier, director of the Museum of Man and Sciences in Johannesburg, took a witchdoctor on a tour of psychiatric hospital. The witchdocotor, Robert Shaballa, without asking a single question, unerringly pointed out a number of patients among the many in the ward, that he said he could cure. It turned out that each of the seven were the only schitzophrenics and hysterics among one hundred patients - mental states that remain incurable with modern science. He claimed that he could see by their auras that they were suffering from spiritual blockages. Naturally he never got a chance to prove his point. But the fact remains, he identified the mental state on sight without mistake. Robert claimed that he could feel the pain of a patient several days before the person actually arrived at his house in Soweto for treatment.

 

I took a documentary team to a location outside Germiston to investigate a psychic healer. When we got to her house some hours before dawn, her front yard was covered with sleeping bodies - patients who had walked through the night to get there. When we questioned them, all said they had been to see regular doctors, who were unable to diagnose their illnesses. During that day we filmed that old women (who worked with nothing but a razor blade, after silently consulting a cheap plastic rosary and taking some snuff to make her sneeze) operate on seventy patients. She made incisions in their skin, either on the forehead, or somewhere on the torso and sucked out all manner of objects, from bits of bones and shells, to sewing needles and bits of plastic. My incredulous crew claimed that she had previopusly swallowed the objects and was merely regurgitating them. I had no Xray machine to confirm or deny this. But what claimed my interest was her seemingly unerring diagnoses of where the pain (among all the hundred of parts of the body) affected her patients. She did this without questioning them. Two of my production crew members had congenital problems. One had bad stomache problems and the other had had a fallopian pregnancy operation and still suffered pain years later. The old women went directly to both of the affected areas - again without asking anything. I have that all registered on film.

 

Maybe our modern doctors could take a lesson from witchdocters and get a better cure ratio if they had the same bed-side manners. ie. Opening their psyches up in order to feel where the pain is without a host of diagnostic tests needed to tell them. Healing is also an art is it not?

 

I am posting this for those who are interested in the full range of paranormal capabilities the human psyche is capable of - when it is open to invisible forces that cannot be quantified by a formula and is trained on how to focus them as a service to others.

 

The history of devil's advocates who refuse to accept any of it goes back into antiquity. Those who question it without scorn, are as necessary as those who take it on faith. Those who employ both science and faith in their investigations find the joy of inspiration and know exactly from whence it springs without loosing their self respect or their sense of awe for a designing force greater than themselves..

[Boerseun]

Ritual have proven very efficient in curing hypochondriacs.

 

When you grow up in a culture believing in the authority of witchdoctors and sangomas, and basically any other kind of loon insisting in the reality of 'auras' as tangible things, what comes into play here is the placebo effect, for which a ton of evidence exist.

 

Sucking out a list of foreign objects as long as my arm is part of the witchdoctor's ad campaign - the witchdoctor has to employ 'smoke and mirrors' in order to 'wow' the audience, to maintain a form of mystical authority.

 

This is not science. This is confusing a bunch of naive, barely literate people for personal gain. It is dangerous, to say the least, but it goes to show how strong the placebo effect is with humans.

[QuantumConsultant]

Ritual have proven very efficient in curing hypochondriacs.

 

When you grow up in a culture believing in the authority of witchdoctors and sangomas, and basically any other kind of loon insisting in the reality of 'auras' as tangible things, what comes into play here is the placebo effect, for which a ton of evidence exist.

 

Sucking out a list of foreign objects as long as my arm is part of the witchdoctor's ad campaign - the witchdoctor has to employ 'smoke and mirrors' in order to 'wow' the audience, to maintain a form of mystical authority.

 

This is not science. This is confusing a bunch of naive, barely literate people for personal gain. It is dangerous, to say the least, but it goes to show how strong the placebo effect is with humans.

And what exactly do you think the plecebo effect is? It's the mind affecting change. Quantum physics knows this intimately: the mere observation and expectation of an outcome of an experiment changes the experiment. The woman who touched Jesus' garment was healed instantly. Her belief, or as you call it, the plecebo effect was what healed her. The mind's powerful ability to do this is the core of spiritual teaching and the crux of the statement in Genesis that states that we are all created in the image of God. Yes, God is the very foundation of your being and yet you mock this. How else do you think your mind has the ability to heal the body and other human beings and make changes in the world? It all starts with just believing!!? Of course the plecebo effect is strong in humans. Jesus also said that if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. The plecebo effect is evidence of this promise and yet you make fun of it.

 

The study of auras, or rather the bio-energitic field, has been going on since the 1960s. There are thousands of photos of this phenomenon and several types of equipment that can detect the electromagnetic energy field that is emitted by every living form on the planet including plants.

 

For thousands of years new discoveries and ideas have always been mocked and ridiculed by people with limited thinking who are too lazy to find out for themselves the truth of the matter in question . Their "plecebo effect" severly limits their ability to experience the wonders and joy of their true nature as a being of Divine Light. It amazes me to see people on a science forum come to conclusions about topics they haven't even studied.

 

May the Light of God illuminate you from within.

[Boerseun]

And what exactly do you think the plecebo effect is? It's the mind affecting change.

The placebo effect is an illusion of healing for an illusionary illness. The placebo effect will not reverse cancer or AIDS, however, it might alleviate some imaginary sickness. The placebo effect works wonders on hypochondriacs. There is no such thing as an aura. The photos you are referring to is infrared pics where the layer of hot air rising off the individual's skin looks eerily like some sort of spiritual manifestation. Which it it not, of course.

Yes, God is the very foundation of your being and yet you mock this...

How else do you think your mind has the ability to heal the body and other human beings and make changes in the world? It all starts with just believing!!? ...

Jesus also said that if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains...

The plecebo effect is evidence of this promise and yet you make fun of it...

What made you think I'm a Christian? This isn't a pulpit. Get off your soapbox. I will let you know I mock the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and any other dogmatic belief system such as Islam, Mormons, and, incidentally, Christianity, on an equal basis.

The study of auras, or rather the bio-energitic field, has been going on since the 1960s. There are thousands of photos of this phenomenon and several types of equipment that can detect the electromagnetic energy field that is emitted by every living form on the planet including plants.

A lot has been going on since the '60s. A lot of it mind-altering and illegal. To the best of my knowledge, there is no device that can pick up an 'aura' for the simple reason that an 'aura' does not exist - regardless of how many hippies hold hands and sing kumbaya. Neither does a soul, for that matter. You are confusing psychedelic infrared photography with what you want it to be. It's not.

For thousands of years new discoveries and ideas have always been mocked and ridiculed by people with limited thinking who are too lazy to find out for themselves the truth of the matter in question .

The irony of this incredibly intelligent statement of yours is staggering in scope and size. Try again.

Their "plecebo effect" severly limits their ability to experience the wonders and joy of their true nature as a being of Divine Light. It amazes me to see people on a science forum come to conclusions about topics they haven't even studied.

Hahaha - people coming to science forums don't usually bother with such immensely intellectually stimulating topics such as Divine Light. While we're on the topic, though - what's the speed of Divine Light? Should we refer to that as DC? Would E=m(d)c2 hold? Does Divine Light consist out of normal photons, or little photons with halos? Come on. Get real.

May the Light of God illuminate you from within.

May the sun's nuclear furnace burn in order to emit photons so that you can metabolize for many more years...

[QuantumConsultant]

The placebo effect is an illusion of healing for an illusionary illness. The placebo effect will not reverse cancer or AIDS, however, it might alleviate some imaginary sickness.

 

First of all I would like to know why anger drips off your every word? Is this how you live your life? Angry and sceptical of everything and everyone? Of course you have every right to do so. But you don't have to.

 

The plecebo effect is science's way of documenting the power of the mind. There are thousands of people in the world who have taken this innate ability we all have and developed it to where they can heal AIDS and other diseases. This is of course documented but I'm sure you have an excuse to explain this away too.

 

 

 

What made you think I'm a Christian? This isn't a pulpit. Get off your soapbox. I will let you know I mock the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and any other dogmatic belief system such as Islam, Mormons, and, incidentally, Christianity, on an equal basis.

 

You are abviously not a Christian. And that's completely fine because I'm not either in the traditional sense. Most Americans are Christians so using quotes from the Bible are more applicable. But why do you feel the need to mock anything? Usually people who have this need to mock other people and thier beliefs are because they feel very insecure with their own beliefs and are not very happy with themselves. Is this why your feel the strong need to mock other people?

 

 

A lot has been going on since the '60s. A lot of it mind-altering and illegal.

 

Are you kidding me? That is is your response? You basically say that the majority of things that have been happening in this world since the '60s is mind altering and illegal. Do you not see the pure ignorance in that statement? Are you a scientist or a punk kid who plays video games all day in an upstairs room at his mom's house?

 

To the best of my knowledge, there is no device that can pick up an 'aura' for the simple reason that an 'aura' does not exist - regardless of how many hippies hold hands and sing kumbaya. Neither does a soul, for that matter. You are confusing psychedelic infrared photography with what you want it to be. It's not.

 

You will never be able to tell the millions of people in this world that auras don't exist. We see them everyday. Doctors, reverends, school teachers, decent and caring people I personally know see auras on a regular basis. You cannot see them, however, because you are blinded by anger, bigotry, hatred, and ignorance. Telling somebody that auras don't exist is like telling somebody that they don't have dreams because they haven't sufficiently proved it to you to your satisfaction.

 

Hahaha - people coming to science forums don't usually bother with such immensely intellectually stimulating topics such as Divine Light. While we're on the topic, though - what's the speed of Divine Light? Should we refer to that as DC? Would E=m(d)c2 hold? Does Divine Light consist out of normal photons, or little photons with halos? Come on. Get real.

 

So your are looking for an immensely, intellectually stimulating conversation, are you? That will not be possible for you because you are so closed off mentally that you reject, discount, and mock everything that does not fit into your little mental box. And if "Get real" means that I have to view the world like you do I will have to respectfully decline your invitation.

 

Your Divinity as a being of God will always exist whether you belive in it or not. And you are loved beyond anything you could ever imagine.

 

May peace find its way into your heart, my friend.

[Boerseun]

QuantumConsultant:

 

Do NOT put words in my mouth, please.

 

Also, calling members around here 'punk kids', or angry hateful bigots, won't help. Matter of fact, if you've gone to the trouble of reading our forum rules, you'd know that to be in violation of said rules. Consider yourself warned. Don't get yourself banned now.

 

Matter of fact - I'm not gonna leave it there. I find the sentence "because you are blinded by anger, bigotry, hatred, and ignorance" to be profoundly offensive. You don't know me. You have show yourself here to be incredibly presumptious and prejudiced. So much for the 'love' you spout.

 

If you have any tangible proof for 'auras', let's have it. And by proof, I don't mean anecdotal stories told to you by friends.

 

Are *you* a scientist? Seeing as you've attacked my point of view using that same line, that's a reasonable question. And, if you are, or pretend to be, then you should know how the Scientific Method works, and you should know what counts as evidence, and what doesn't. You should also be aware of the fact that differing opinions exist.

 

Come, bring the goods. Ante up. And enough of the insults, now.

[QuantumConsultant]

If you want to have an intelligent conversation with me on the topic at hand you will need to be more educated on the subject. Please read the following texts.

 

The Quantum Self, by Danah Zohar

The Promise of Energy Psychology, by Feinsten, Eden, and Craig

Matter into Feeling, by Fred Wolf

Hands of Light, by Barbara Brennan

 

The above texts take a very scientific approach to the true nature of the universe and our true selves. If you really want to be able to discuss the new science that is making discoveries that are contrary to your beliefs I would highly suggest reading these books and many more so you become more informed. Or you can just continue to mock what you don't understand.

[Cedars]

If you have any tangible proof for 'auras', let's have it. And by proof, I don't mean anecdotal stories told to you by friends.

 

Are *you* a scientist? Seeing as you've attacked my point of view using that same line, that's a reasonable question. And, if you are, or pretend to be, then you should know how the Scientific Method works, and you should know what counts as evidence, and what doesn't. You should also be aware of the fact that differing opinions exist.

 

Come, bring the goods. Ante up. And enough of the insults, now.

 

I am glad you asked for this information. I wonder myself what the credentials of QC are after the claim was made of being a scientist and the posts made have nothing to do with science.

 

I did google this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Global+stewardship+foundation%22&hl=en&lr=

 

and in reviewing their website found this clip in their contacts page:

 

Nondiscriminatory Policy as to Students:

 

GSF and the HeartStart Pgm, admits students of any race, color, national and ethnic origin to all rights, privileges, programs, and activities generally accorded or made available to students at the facility. It does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, or national and ethnic origin in administration of it's educational policies or programs.

 

Notice how religion is not mentioned in this non-profits, encompass all people with love and divine lights nondiscriminatory policy.

[Boerseun]

If you want to have an intelligent conversation with me on the topic at hand you will need to be more educated on the subject. Please read the following texts.

Once again, completely presumptious. But I'll ignore that for the moment.

The Quantum Self, by Danah Zohar

The basis of this book is that consciousness can be explained as a Bose-Einstein condensate of atoms in the neurons. Interesting idea, sadly impossible. Bose-Einstein condensates can only exist at very low temperatures. The inside of the brain certainly doesn't qualify. The authors could've easily established the impossibility of their claim by looking up B-E condensates in any textbook on statistical mechanics.

The Promise of Energy Psychology, by Feinsten, Eden, and Craig

The authors readily admit their bold claims—"Your emotional health, your success in the world, and your level of joy can all be dramatically enhanced by shifting the energies that regulate them"—are not backed by empirical research. This, therefore, is pure speculation, and doesn't count as evidence.

Matter into Feeling, by Fred Wolf

Fred Alan Wolf demonstrates exquisite craftsmanship in his newest book, MATTER INTO FEELING, as he ties alchemy together with letters of the Hebrew alphabet and physics. - Amazon. Say no more.

Hands of Light, by Barbara Brennan

New Age bull, involving 'healing through interaction with the human aura', or, as it is more widely known, The Emperor's New Age Clothes.

The above texts take a very scientific approach to the true nature of the universe and our true selves. If you really want to be able to discuss the new science that is making discoveries that are contrary to your beliefs I would highly suggest reading these books and many more so you become more informed. Or you can just continue to mock what you don't understand.

No, QuantumConsultant. These texts merely serve to illustrate how popular mysticism is eroding the ground won by good, solid science since the middle ages. There is nothing presented by you here that could count for anything in the scientific world. But then again, you should know that.

 

Also, in the same vein, if you would wish to hold an intelligent conversation here, I can steer you in the direction of some proper scientific material. You might be horrified and disappointed to learn that all this New Age mumbo-jumbo is just that: mumbo jumbo, but, hey - nothing comes free in this life. ;)

 

As a primer for your Scientific Awakening, refer to http://www.snakelyone.com/12step.htm

[MagnetMan]

If you want to have an intelligent conversation with me on the topic at hand you will need to be more educated on the subject. Please read the following texts.

 

The Quantum Self, by Danah Zohar

The Promise of Energy Psychology, by Feinsten, Eden, and Craig

Matter into Feeling, by Fred Wolf

Hands of Light, by Barbara Brennan

 

The above texts take a very scientific approach to the true nature of the universe and our true selves. If you really want to be able to discuss the new science that is making discoveries that are contrary to your beliefs I would highly suggest reading these books and many more so you become more informed. Or you can just continue to mock what you don't understand.

Excellent post. Keep it up! Pay no attention to the hounds snapping at your heals. They are all bark and no bite.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Excellent post. Keep it up! Pay no attention to the hounds snapping at your heals. They are all bark and no bite.

 

Can you guys hold up while I go fetch some popcorn?

 

But then, I already know how this thread ends.

 

Back on track!

 

Is it possible to make an affirmative argument in favor of intelligent design. (That is, is it possible to point to evidence that clearly says "this was designed intelligently?" A message contained deep within pi, a telegraph from god somewhere in human DNA that says "Hey guys, now that you've discovered this, here's the secret to life?")

 

Neither of those things exist, nor has any argument for ID been made that doesn't go - Your argument is imperfect, and therefore, my alternative explanation must be correct.

 

That doesn't pass as logical in any way, shape or form. For one, it's self defeating. Using the logic of ID on ID demolishes it. The evidence for a designer is imperfect, therefore he must not exist and evolution must be a completely random process.

 

That makes NO more sense than the ID argument.

 

Thankfully, the argument for evolution is backed up by petabytes of data that imply that it IS a random process, and by decades of experience with it's mechanisms. The only evidence FOR ID are imperfections in evolutionary theory.

 

I believe you might term building a world view on the minor problems in another world view a house built on sand. ID must offer something affirmative, not just a surrender to limitations. When viewed this way, it is both depressing, and profoundly anti-religious.

 

TFS

[learn nothing about what you cannot explain, abandon awe and wonder for dogma.]

[InfiniteNow]

Or you can just continue to mock what you don't understand.

I very much understand ID, as well as those who hold to it as a "truth," and it disheartens me to know that with all of our progress as a culture there are still people so disillusioned, misinformed, and yet passionate about modern day camp fire stories. It helps to get a sense of a void being filled by holding to such beliefs, but a bigger question of interest is why the void is there in the first place.

[Colby]

And the LORD said: "Behold, there shall be great and heated discussion", and it was so.

 

:thumbs_up

[MagnetMan]

So far the poll shows that a 56% do not believe in ID. The other 46% either does, or does in part or does not know. This is a close enough balance for a large dose of mutual respect, for it confirms the basic fact that mankind remains divided over this issue. And that is the crux of the argument as regards child education. Conversation and argument over the fact that there is a division should be part of the school curriculum.

 

This is not to say that old fashioned religious dogma should be taught in the school classroom, that is the business of the Church, the Temple and the Mosque. But, in the interests of balance, right brain exercizes in art and crafts and other metaphsyical drills that develop the intuitive half of the psyche should be introduced into school curriculums on an equal time basis. Students should be made aware that not all of us believe or even know if the universe is simply a mechanical clock, that something far more profound might well underly its mysteries. Right now, as we can see, we are divided and our power is halved, and that is why the artificial dollar rules, while common sense is left bent over the mass production line, struggling to pay the landlord..

[Pyrotex]

...The Quantum Self, by Danah Zohar

The Promise of Energy Psychology, by Feinsten, Eden, and Craig

Matter into Feeling, by Fred Wolf

Hands of Light, by Barbara Brennan

....

If you go through the Brittanica Encyclopedia reference book on people who have changed the world, brought enlightenment to the masses, or made a significant difference in any way, you will NOT find these people or ANY other people "like them". Such folks have for centuries tooted their horns and promised their breakthroughs and offered their miracles and explained their profound insights.

 

They have left nothing behind, but ignorance, confusion and misery.

 

The "placebo affect" is the power of self-delusion. It is the mind conning the mind. Hey, this can be useful if your back hurts! But it is still a self-delusion. The great philosophers, especially Kant, were quite clear about this:

 

The power of the human mind to believe in anything -- however delusional -- is without limit. Take the most idiotic conjecture, wrap it in nobility, divinity, hope and self-righteousness, and you CAN find people who will believe in it, lock, stock, and barrel. It's not much harder to find people who will sacrifice their lives for it.

 

Perhaps the majority of humanity live in such states of perpetual self-delusion.