Salt, NaCl, Sodium Chloride.

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting discussion on salt and Agriculture in Australia Here

View topic - Farmland salinity, groundwater | Permaculture discussion forum

(that may be page 2)

[Michaelangelica]

Healthy Olives Can Now Be Grown In Salty Water

ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — The news that olives are sources of "good fat" has increased worldwide demand for the luscious, versatile fruits. Olives have become extremely popular, enjoyed as condiments, appetizers, spreads, and additions to salads and sauces. Their heart-healthy oil has is also enjoying superstar status in kitchens around the world.

Healthy Olives Can Now Be Grown In Salty Water

[Michaelangelica]

SaltMaster

 

The SaltMaster is a compact and relatively inexpensive way to fight salinity by using sub-surface drainage.

About the Inventor

 

George Binet is a retired farmer from Cranbrook, WA.

 

George has spent his whole life as a farmer apart from a few years as a milkman as a teenager. At 17 he started ‘developing’ farms, which meant he went in and pulled the trees down and cleared the land ready for a farmer to move in.

He then started farming wheat and sheep for other people before buying his own farm and growing tomatoes and broccoli.

 

George recently celebrated his 50th wedding anniversary this year with his wife Judith.

 

George used to like to race motor bikes and loves to watch car racing and is also a fan of the Westcoast Eagles.

 

Contact

 

For more information about SaltMaster, contact the following:

Please write to:

George Binet

PO Box 190

Cranbrook WA 6321

Online Discussion

 

Read what others have said or have your say.

New Inventors: SaltMaster

I didn't see this episode

What do you think?

[Serapis J.]

I think you are on the right track with your solar distiller, only I would consider hybridizing with a solar Brine concentrator to optimize efficiency. As I am not an expert in the field I would be hard pressed to describe the difference technically, other than the fact that a BC utilizes certain membranes which separate the condensate (water vapor) from the collector plate. Sounds rather complex although I have read that their construction can be simple and inexpensive (relative to Reverse Osmosis). This is something I plan to experiment with as well, as I also live in a desert! I am also looking into grey water recovery for waste water use, and lastly Dry Composting toilets. All of these technologies may seem fringe and extreme, at least they did a decade ago, however I think in the near term they will be widely adopted and assimilated. Necessity is the mother of invention, or was that Frank Zappa? any way good luck & keep posting your discoveries.

[Michaelangelica]

Thanks Serapis J,

Can you give me more info or a link to the brine concentrator or BC utilities please?

 

Composting toilets I have been watching for 40 years. I think their technology is fine now. Your problem might be your local council.

Here, they insist as they have gone to the trouble of engineering a sewerage system for you, you should pay for it

(Even if they do dump the sewage in what engineers consider a 'bottomless pit' -the ocean.)

 

Grey water looks like a bit of an expensive pain.

Also most detergents are full of salt even most of the off-the -shelf 'ecological' ones

 

Have you thought of looking at an air-water harvester, perhaps run by solar?

[Karnuvap]

Why does de-salination need to be so difficult?

 

It seems to me that the areas that need fresh water are deserts and these are, almost by definition, sunny places. I have often wondered why energy expensive reverse osmosis systems are used to de-salinate water (apart from the obvious that these are in places where fossil fuels are relatively cheap) when there is a plentiful source of energy bearing down on the land in the form of solar. Just a few solar electricity generating cells could power pumps that could take the water from the coast to inland where the sun can then evaporate the water from large brine pools. You just need to direct the moisture laden air above the brine pools to suitable condensing methods. To do this you need a source of cool and it gets plenty cool overnight in the desert or maybe you could dig into the (relatively) cooler sub-soil. Again solar cells could provide the electricity to blow the moist air towards the cooling condenser areas. Then you just need to pump the condensate of pure water away.

 

How hard can it be? - Or am I missing something obvious?

[Moontanman]

Why does de-salination need to be so difficult?

 

It seems to me that the areas that need fresh water are deserts and these are, almost by definition, sunny places. I have often wondered why energy expensive reverse osmosis systems are used to de-salinate water (apart from the obvious that these are in places where fossil fuels are relatively cheap) when there is a plentiful source of energy bearing down on the land in the form of solar. Just a few solar electricity generating cells could power pumps that could take the water from the coast to inland where the sun can then evaporate the water from large brine pools. You just need to direct the moisture laden air above the brine pools to suitable condensing methods. To do this you need a source of cool and it gets plenty cool overnight in the desert or maybe you could dig into the (relatively) cooler sub-soil. Again solar cells could provide the electricity to blow the moist air towards the cooling condenser areas. Then you just need to pump the condensate of pure water away.

 

How hard can it be? - Or am I missing something obvious?

 

I'm not sure if the way you describe would be fast enough to supply really large amounts of water. Your take on fossil fuels is spot on, a nuclear power plant could provide the power to make huge quantities of fresh water. I've looked on line but I can't find any figures that would indicate how much water can be produced via solar evaporation. I am sure it would ideal for a small population that lived on the coast of a hot desert area. Possibly it could kill two birds with one stone and provide sea salt as well as fresh water.

[Serapis J.]

Just one little reactor core breech could ruin your whole day! (for the next 10,000 yrs.) not to mention that after more than 50 yrs. of commercial operation, there is still no viable plan to handle Nuclear Waste. Irreversible genetic mutation by radiation poses the greatest known threat to the future of human DNA. Is it really worth the consequences when the world is finally ripe to push forward in R&D of green technologies. If we would have started in the 70's during the "energy crisis" there is no question that the problems which we are facing down presently in the form of skyrocketing fuel prices, pollution, and even quite possibly the boogyman himself "Global Warming!" would be greatly mitigated. We turned away from Nuclear Power decades ago for the same reasons we find it objectionable today, nothing has changed accept for maybe the dwindling supply of uranium/plutonium which isn't exactly a renewable resource nor is it cheap!

[Michaelangelica]

Why does de-salination need to be so difficult?

 

How hard can it be? - Or am I missing something obvious?

This could work but have a look at it in reality. It is a big job requiring a lot of energy.

Say the coast of NSW. to get water inland you would need 200+ miles of pipe. Water would need to be lifted 1,000 +? m over the Blue Mountains

When you got it inland what are you going to do with the salt you extract?

What is the cost of such a system?

 

What if you had two pipes from the sea. The inner one with the salt water another outer pipe heating the inner pipe. Somehow you collect the steam from the inner pipe and send it on.

So your piping system becomes your desalinator and delivery and waste system.

Just a crazy thought I have been playing with for some years. I still don't know how to make it work.

 

Look here at a post I made on The dying Murray Darling River System.

The eighth largest river system in the word. The home of most of Australia's bird life with hundreds of lagoons and flood plains now turning to sulphuric acid.

View topic - How can the Murry Darling System be saved for ever? | Permaculture discussion forum

View topic - Can permaculture feed Australia? | Permaculture discussion forum

[Moontanman]

Just one little reactor core breech could ruin your whole day! (for the next 10,000 yrs.) not to mention that after more than 50 yrs. of commercial operation, there is still no viable plan to handle Nuclear Waste. Irreversible genetic mutation by radiation poses the greatest known threat to the future of human DNA. Is it really worth the consequences when the world is finally ripe to push forward in R&D of green technologies. If we would have started in the 70's during the "energy crisis" there is no question that the problems which we are facing down presently in the form of skyrocketing fuel prices, pollution, and even quite possibly the boogyman himself "Global Warming!" would be greatly mitigated. We turned away from Nuclear Power decades ago for the same reasons we find it objectionable today, nothing has changed accept for maybe the dwindling supply of uranium/plutonium which isn't exactly a renewable resource nor is it cheap!

 

It's sad when someone who knows absolutely knowing about nuclear power makes terrifying claims that they are just parroting from anti-nuclear crazies who also have no real knowledge of nuclear power. What you say is nuclear waste will be fuel for the next generation of reactors. these reactors use up the waste of earlier reactors and leave behind a much shorter lived and much smaller volume of waste. These new reactors cannot breach, they cannot melt down, The reactors the anti nuclear crazies have sidled us with through their activities of trying to make it impossible to even research nuclear power, these old reactors are like biplane aircraft compared to 747 jets. The old technology is dangerous but the new technology has not only made nuclear power safe it has also allowed the old waste to be fuel. Before you start wailing about the dangers of nuclear power you should look into the new technology and the benefits of that technology.

[Michaelangelica]

On the power thing i have posted this before.

China is opening a new coal- fired power staion what every week?>probaly with alot of Australian Coal which was what Dr. karl , i assume, is talking about

"Dr. Karl's" reaction to coal power stations

In his book "Sensational Moments in Science", ABC Press, 2001.

He has an interesting take on coal power:-

 

"In 1982, some 111 (US)nuclear-fired power plants consumed about 540 tonnes of nuclear fuel.

In the same year, coal-fired power plants released over 800 tonnes of uranium." into the atmosphere.

"If a single nuclear-fired plant released 8K of uranium into the bio-sphere. there would be . .an enormous outcry."

 

He says the nuclear content of coal has not yet reached general public awareness in the same way that the greenhouse effect AIDs, or the ozone hole have.

There are no nuclear regulations about the disposal of coal ash

 

Coal apparently contains a heap of uranium and thorium

He concludes that you will get three times more radiation from a coal fired power plant than a nuclear fueled power plant! That's if you include the complete nuclear fuel cycle mining, processing operating, disposal(!?)

If you don't include these your average coal-fired power plant puts out 100 times more radiation than a nuclear-fired plant.

p103-104

I have also posted this before and still wonder why no one has taken it up

 

I live on the Central Coast of NSW surrounded by power stations that use salt water to cool the plants.

I have often wondered (with little water in the dam, and an 80 million $ pipeline proposed) why the power stations can't also desalinate water

 

I talked to a Guy at a recent conference who worked for a big power Station up north.

I ran the "de-sal at power plant" idea by him and he thought it was a good idea.

Power Stations, as you know, need to keep a base load going.

At night, he said, they need to gradually "step down" their massive generators. CO2 wise, this is not very efficient use of the energy produced by burning the coal. A lot of energy is wasted gradually stepping down the massive generators over a period of hours.

Sometimes they need to expend a lot of energy going to get an extra power station on line to cope with peak demand.

He also said that seawater used for cooling is warmed to 50C anyway, so it is not a lot more to get to 101C.

I suppose it is a matter of economics, perhaps of perception, perhaps of conservative thinking; but the Professor's new technology (below) looks good.

What do you think?

 

Professor Discovers Better Way To Desalinate Water

 

Science Daily — Chemical engineer Kamalesh Sirkar, PhD, a distinguished professor at New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) and an expert in membrane separation technology, is leading a team of researchers to develop a breakthrough method to desalinate water. Sirkar, who holds more than 20 patents in the field of membrane separation, said that using his technology, engineers will be able to recover water from brines with the highest salt concentrations. The Bureau of Reclamation in the Department of Interior is funding the project.

 

Kamalesh K. Sirkar, PhD, is a distinguished professor of chemical engineering and the sponsored chair for membrane separations and the director for the Center for Membrane Technologies at New Jersey Institute of Technology.

 

"Our process will work especially well with brines holding salt concentrations above 5.5 percent," Sirkar said. Currently, 5.5 percent is the highest percentage of salt in brine that can be treated using reverse osmosis.

 

"We especially like our new process because we can fuel it with low grade, inexpensive waste heat," Sirkar said. "Cheap heat costs less, but can heat brine efficiently."

 

ScienceDaily: Professor Discovers Better Way To Desalinate Water

 

 

Professor Discovers Better Way To Desalinate Water

 

Saltwater Solution To Save Crops

 

ScienceDaily (Sep. 15, 2008) — Technology under development at the University of New South Wales could offer new hope to farmers in drought-affected and marginal areas by enabling crops to grow using salty groundwater.

 

Associate Professor Greg Leslie, a chemical engineer at UNSW's UNESCO Centre for Membrane Science and Technology, is working with the University of Sydney on technology which uses reverse-osmosis membranes to turn previously useless, brackish groundwater into a valuable agricultural resource.

 

"We are looking at ways to grow plants on very salty water without damaging soil," Professor Leslie said.

 

"We're incorporating a reverse osmosis membrane into a sub-surface drip irrigation system.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080911103910.htm

i wonder what happens to the salt collected?

[Karnuvap]

This could work but have a look at it in reality. It is a big job requiring a lot of energy.

Say the coast of NSW. to get water inland you would need 200+ miles of pipe. Water would need to be lifted 1,000 +? m over the Blue Mountains

 

I was thinking more of those places where the desert is close to the coast (and not the other side of a mountain range!)

 

I like your idea of allowing the extra-salty water to get back to the sea while also using it to pre-heat the incoming sea water on its way to the evaporation pools. Every little bit helps.

 

I also think that anything that help sea evaporation is also good. I have seen some plans for giant fountains that spray water into the sky above the surface of the sea and it evaporates on the way down - thus creating clouds that will, hopefully drop their rain over land.

 

We can only hope that someone will take these ideas and turn them into reality.

 

The Vap.

[Michaelangelica]

New rice hybrid grows on salty lands

Last Updated(Beijing Time):2008-10-14 08:02

A Chinese scientist announced Monday in Shenzhen that he has successfully developed hybridized rice that could grow in salina - land areas or bodies of water encrusted with crystalline salt.

 

"The experiment in Shandong province showed the hybridized rice could survive in salina, and the output for 1 mu (about 667 sq m) of land could reach 360 kg," Zhu Peikun, inventor of the technology, said.

 

Ordinary rice died when researchers attempted to grow it on the same land, he said.

 

He began studying the possibility of hybridizing Spartina - a plant species commonly known as "cord grass" that flourishes in coastal salt marshes - with rice in 2003.

'"Our goal wasn't to develop a rice variety that appeared like cord grass but rather, one that lived like cord grass," he said.

 

"China has about 1.48 billion mu of salina, nearly three-fourths of its total cultivatable land. If my invention could be applied, it could help dramatically increase the country's grain output."

New rice hybrid grows on salty lands_Sci&Tech--China Economic Net

[Michaelangelica]

High Salt Levels In Food Banished By Seaweed

 

ScienceDaily (Sep. 18, 2008) — High salt levels in processed food could be a thing of the past, thanks to new research which has found that a certain type of seaweed can be used as a natural, health boosting alternative that doesn't affect the taste or adversely affect the shelf life of the food.

In a project that could revolutionise the food industry and improve the health of millions, researchers at Sheffield Hallam University have been working with Seagreens® to develop the use of seaweed granules as an alternative to salt (sodium chloride) in processed food.

 

Around 75 per cent of our daily salt intake comes from processed foods, with the average adult consuming 50 per cent more salt than the recommended limit of six grams per day.

 

Too much salt can lead to high blood pressure, which triples a person's chances of suffering a heart attack or stroke. Experts predict that if all adults cut their salt intake down to recommended levels then 70,000 heart attacks and strokes would be prevented each year in the UK.

High Salt Levels In Food Banished By Seaweed

A fad or fairdinkum?

http://www.seagreens.com/

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting discussion on soil salinity

Permaculture discussion forum • View topic - Farmland salinity, groundwater

[cooloola]

Michael - to answer your query about childrens diarrhea and salt -

we all lose key body salts during episodes of diarrhea children and infants have smaller bodies which lose a comparitively greater ammount of salts during those episodes plus due to their habit of sticking fingers in places they shouldn't be and into their mouths are more likely to get diarreah in the first place. The effects of dehydration are not only from the water lost from the body but also the salts, sodium chloride, bicarbonates, potassium and magnesium. Oral rehydration therapy sachets as recommended by UNICEF and WHO contain sodium chloride, trisodium citrate dihydrate, potassium chloride and glucose added to a litre of cooled boiled water. The glucose greatly enhances the intestines ability to absorb fluid and salts (as much as 20 times more). For those without the sachets a homemade recipe of ORT is: I Litre of cooled boiled water, one level teaspoon of salt, 8 level teaspoons of sugar. Potassium is then replaced by inclusion of banana's to the diet in the days after the diarreah has settled.

Salt is essential to health and there is an abundance of it occuring naturally in food so no need to add. Too much salt is bad - where salt goes water follows so too much salt means too much water and too much water means increase in blood pressure.

[Michaelangelica]

10 Everyday Technologies That Can Change the World | Environment | DISCOVER Magazine

10 Chlorine from Salt

For the roughly 1.2 billion people lacking clean water, a bit of chlorine could go a long way toward providing it. Using two ounces of salt water and some muscle, University of Iowa engineering professor Craig Just can make enough bleach to kill the disease-causing microorganisms in five gallons of water. His trick: a hand-cranked device that generates electricity to zap water molecules, splitting them and joining them with chlorine atoms from salt. Just and his students plan to test a prototype in Ghana and Honduras next year.