Only one God created this entire Universe!!!

[dattaswami]

My take on this thread is: Religion is Nonsense, while Science is Enlightenment!

Spiritual Knowledge - Concepts Of Science

 

Science is the logical analysis of the items existing in this creation based on only one authority that is perception (Pratyaksha Pramanam). Even in the ancient logic, all the authorities (Pramanas) are based on perception only. You see the fire giving smoke. This is deduction or perception. When you see the smoke coming from a distance and do not see the fire, you say that fire exists there and this is induction or inference (Anumana Pramanam). But this induction is based on your previous deduction only. Somebody says to you that fire gives smoke. If that person is your dearest, you believe it and infer the fire from the smoke. This is authority of word ‘Shabdha Pramanam’.

 

Though you have not seen the fire, your dearest person has seen the smoke coming from fire. Like this all the authorities are based on perception only. I do not find any scripture of any Religion, which contradicts the experience of perception. There are four ways of authority. 1) Sruthi, which is the original scripture. 2) Smrithi, which is the commentaries of Scholars on the original scripture. 3) Yukthi, the logical analysis based on deduction, induction etc., 4) Anubhava, the experience based on the perception of the items in this world, which may be direct or indirect. Out of these four ways, the fourth way is the most powerful. If anything contradicts the fourth way, that is not valid or it may be a misinterpretation based on misunderstanding of the Sruthi or Smrithi or Yukthi. Thus Science and Philosophy are not separate. The very frame of the spiritual knowledge is Science only. Thus Science is the basic foundation and over all underlying structure of all the Scriptures.

 

A true Scientist should always stand on the perception and should not deny the experience derived by perception. If he denies, he is not a scientist. All top most scientists were philosophers and spiritual people only. Those scientists have travelled along the river of Science and reached its end, which is the ocean of spiritual knowledge called as philosophy. Philosophy is pervading all the branches of Science. Every branch of Science gives Ph.D as the final degree. Ph.D means Doctor in Philosophy. If Science and Philosophy are different, why this word Philosophy is regarded so much by all the branches of Science? Philosophy means the essence of the knowledge of every branch that is experienced when one reaches the end of that branch.

 

Therefore, the spiritual knowledge, which is the ocean is the Philosophy in which all branches of Science and all the Religions merge and loose their identity. A scientist who has not reached the end of Science and who is still travelling in the river only denies the existence of the ocean, since he is still perceiving the limiting boundaries of his knowledge – river. Such river-travellers are called as atheists. They neither see the ocean nor see the other rivers. Even the follower of any particular Religion is in the state of this atheist only. He is no better than these atheists because he believes that God is a particular form only, which is a small part of this creation. Some other followers believe God as formless, who is the all-pervading cosmic energy. Since cosmic energy is also a part of the creation, their form of God is very big. These atheist-scientist believe that this creation is God. Thus all these are atheists only. All these atheists, who may be scientific atheists or religious atheists, will realize the true nature of God only when they reach the end of the Science or Religion.

 

A scientific atheist is contradicting his own authority, which is the perception. When the human incarnation performs the inexplicable miracles, how can they deny the perception of such miracles? You may do that miracle in an alternative way, but that does not contradict the different path of the original miracle. One may get first class by copying. Such false first class cannot contradict the genuine first class. The result is same, but the process is different. You may produce ash by putting a fine powder of wet salt in the grews of your hand like a magician. The same ash may be produced by a divine miracle also. Since the result is same, can you argue that the process also should be same? Since the first class result is same in the case of the original student and a fraud student, do you mean that the hard work of the original student is fraud?

 

Do you mean that the original and fraud students are one and the same? Therefore, the same result can have two different processes. Since the result is same, processes need not be same. Do you mean that a result has only one process? Is it not contradicting the very fundamentals of Science?

 

A Chemical compound can be produced in several ways (Hess Law). Since the compound is same, do you mean that the alternative reactions are also one and the same? Same Chennai city can be reached by several ways. Since the end City is same, do you mean that all the paths are not different? Do you mean that all the paths are merged as one path only and thus there is only one path to reach the Chennai city? Therefore, conservative scientists and conservative religious followers can be categorized as immature analysts. The immaturity indicates their position in the river and maturity indicates their position in the end of the river, which is the ocean. Einstein, Newton, Heisenberg etc., are the top most scientists who have travelled and travelled along the Science River and reached the final spiritual ocean.

[dattaswami]

To me I form my belief based in a number of concepts, i do not call myself by any well known name.

 

I am spiritual, I just don't have a name for what I am.

 

For me, god is. And god created the universe and all the little things that dwelt within, and god is the beginning and the end. God is everything and everything is God, in whole and in part. If you look down to the smallest part, a quark for instance, that is in entirety, God. if you look at the whole universe, that is in entirety, God.

 

I am god, and you are god and we are god. (I know what I speak is heresy in some belief structures, but it is what I believe.) In christianity it says you can not conceave of the mind of god, which is more or less true.

 

One can not grasp the concept of each and every grain of sand in the great scape that is the universe. However one may content themselves to what they can grasp and what they can know, and expierence. I may not know the name of the grain of sand upon alpha centauri prime, but I do know it's common name, and that is God.

 

I love this one poem,

 

It's so simple and it express so much.

 

We are not God

 

Reaching self is reaching Lord?

 

Everybody aspires the highest fruit through the easiest way. The easiest way is the path of knowledge, which does not require any sacrifice. The highest fruit is to become the very Lord right now from this moment onwards. They like the preacher to say that they should just come out of their house to receive a heap of infinite treasure lying down before the doors. Anybody will be happiest to receive the news that, he has become eligible to join the post of district collector in whatever stage of his study to the I.A.S. Examination he is present. The post is offered to the fresh student who just joined the I.A.S. Course and also to the student who passed the I.A.S. Examination. Both are equally eligible now itself to join the same post. If the preacher says that already both have joined the post and that they have forgotten this truth, now all the effort is only to recognize that they are the district collectors. This gives the idea that there is no need of any future effort. This is the mis-interpreted philosophy of monoism (Advaita) of Sankara.

 

Everybody is very much attracted to this path. The influence of this path is so much that no body is coming out of this illusion. It is so sweet that they are unable to leave this state. The basic misconcept is to think that the self is the superself. Self is any living being in this world. Super self is the Lord. They just find one common point i.e., the pure awareness (Chit) exists in both. The Prime Minister and his peon have several common points like pure awareness, similar form of external human body etc. Both eat and sleep similarly. Both are married and both have children. Because of these common points can you treat the Prime Minister and His peon as one and the same? Based on one common point i.e., pure awareness, how can you say that self is superself? Veda says that by the order of the Lord, the Sun is shining. In summer due to sunstroke a human being is killed. Let the Advaita scholar stand against the sunstroke and order the Sun not to kill him.

 

When the disciples of Sankara thought that they are also the Lord, Sankara swallowed the molten lead and asked the disciples to do the same. Then they fell on the feet of Sankara. Then Sankara told "Shivah Kevaloham", which means that only He is Shiva. The word Kevala (only) is important here. Sankara while taking bath in the ocean at Puri told "Oh! Lord! Though the qualitative identity is in between us, the quantitative difference exists. The water is common in both the sea and the wave like the pure awareness in the soul and super soul. But the quantitative difference exists and one should not forget that the entire wave is in the sea but the entire sea is not in the wave". This is stated as a message for the sake of ordinary soul. These Advaita Scholars filter all the differentiating points and finally get the common point filtered down into the beaker as the filtrate. The differentiating points are the residue on the filter paper and the filtered common point is in the downward beaker. They see only the beaker but not the filter paper. Therefore, the whole spiritual path is twisted and confused almost all the human beings.

 

Seeing this situation the same Sankara came as Ramanuja and Madhva and clearly differentiated the superself from the self. Some devotees have come out of this illusion but several people are still lingering there only due to their unreasonable and unimaginable ambition for the fruit. Unless this basic concept is realized, all the stages of the spiritual effort cannot be healthy. The poison injected in the foundation has spread all over the upstairs of the construction. Your question has already assumed that self is super self. You have no doubt about that basic concept. Nobody likes to touch that basic concept. If that basic concept is analysed the entire castle of their ambition will collapse. They cannot tolerate to loose the highest fruit, which was captured by them by the easiest way of self-realization. Now for such self-realization, you are asking whether the meditation or the study of scriptures is the path. When the goal itself is absent what is the use of the path? It is something like asking whether one should pass eighth standard or ninth standard to become the district collector. Neither of these two standards can give you the post. By passing those two standards one can get the post of a peon. One has to pass the I.A.S. Examination for which he is eligible after passing degree examination, which is far from both those standards. These advaita scholars argue that the peon is the collector. They do not accept the existence of any higher post other than the peon.

 

The reason for this basic misunderstanding is the word "Brahman". As per Sanskrit grammar this word comes from the root "Bruhi-Vruddhau", which means that the root meaning of this word is greatness. Anything that is great can be called as Brahman. The soul is the most precious and greatest item of the creation and is called as Para Prakruti, which means the greatest of all the created items. The soul is included as a part of the creation (Prakruti) and is called as Para Prakruti as said in Gita (Prakritim Viddhi me paraam….). It is not Creator. If it is Creator it cannot be called as Prakruti. It is only the modification of food during evolution as said in Veda (Annat Purushah…). The same inert energy called as electro magnetic radiation working through a special unknown technology is life. The materials of the technology are known and the working inert energy is also known. But the special technology in which it works is not known and therefore, life energy is not synthesized so far. Only God knows that technology.

 

 

When sage Gautama cursed Ahalya, she became a stone. Now where is the soul and its subtle body of Ahalya? Is it not in the stone? If it is not in the stone there is no suffering to the soul through its subtle body. When the foot of Rama touched it, it is converted into the woman called Ahalya. This clearly shows the inter conversion of life energy into inert energy and vice-versa. When Brahma stole the cows and cowboys for one year, Lord Krishna created the same cows and cowboys again. If the soul is eternal it cannot be created again. This again proves that the soul is only a part of the creation and not the eternal Creator. The soul is said to be eternal with reference to this temporary body. Thus it is only relatively more permanent as said in Gita (Na Hanyate Hanyamane Sareere).

 

If one does not understand the theory of relativity the verses in the second chapter in Gita cannot be realized. The soul is greater than the great body but the super soul is greater than the greater soul. Therefore, the soul is not greatest. But as far as the items of Prakruti or Creation are concerned soul is the greatest and this does not mean that the soul is the super soul. The super soul is beyond the creation and is not an item of the creation. Therefore, the super soul does not come into the boundaries of Creation or Prakruti. In this sense the greatest soul within the boundaries of creation is called as Brahman. The Scripture Veda is also called as Brahman because it is greatest among all the scriptures. This is stated in Gita (Brahmaakshara Samudbhavam).

 

Therefore, any greatest item in a specific category can be called as Brahman. There is another path of psychological treatment of the teacher. It is to encourage the student by attaching the highest goal to every step he climbs. To make the student climb one more step, the teacher says that if he climbs one more step the final roof is achieved. In this way the encouragement is given to the devotee by saying that the super self is achieved if the self is achieved. In fact the achievement of self is necessary to achieve the super self.

 

If one attains his own self, he attains perfect peace. If he identifies himself to be the soul, which is the pure awareness, he is detached from the gross body and the inner subtle body. By such detachment all the worldly bonds disappear and all the mental worries vanish. By this one attains the peace. Peace is a pre-requisite for attaining the super self. Thus attainment of self is very important, which is the middle station of the journey.

 

When you are mental worried and dragged by these worldly bonds, how can you concentrate and develop the single bond on God? Therefore, self-realization is the basis for reaching the super self. But one should not stop at the self-realization because attainment of self is not attainment of super self. One is traveling from Vijayawada to Mumbai. The middle station is Hyderabad. One should reach Hyderabad before reaching Mumbai. But one should not get down at Hyderabad thinking that it is Mumbai.

 

Therefore, to attain the self and thereby to attain the peace as a pre-requisite qualification for attaining the super self, both the study of scriptures as well as meditation are important. To know the truth the scripture must be studied. But only the Sadguru must explain the scripture. ‘Veda, the scripture has to be studied from a Guru only and should not be read directly from book’. Even this statement is mis-understood.

 

People misinterpret that the recitation of Veda should be done only with the help of the Guru or Preacher. For recitation no teacher is required. Any student can by-heart any book by self-reading and no teacher is required for that. The correct interpretation of this statement is that Veda should be explained through a Sadguru (True Preacher) only. The teacher is required for the explanation and interpretation and not for the recitation. Thus, the study of the scripture must be done only with the help of Sadguru and not the Guru who is an ordinary human being only.

 

Then meditation means memorizing the concept that you are the self or soul or casual body and detaching yourself from the gross and subtle bodies. Both are required to fix you in the soul permanently. Pooja is the worship of a model only, which is related to the preliminary low cadre devotees as said "Pratimaahyalpa Buddhinaam". Thus both the study of Scripture with the help of Sadguru and meditation are important to attain the middle station. Both these are also the indirect means to attain the super self because unless the peace is attained by self-realization, one cannot travel further to attain and please the super self or the Lord.

 

 

People are clinging to the fruit of the path of Sankara due to over ambition, which can be obtained by spending a little time and energy in study of the scripture. It is just like the recent computer scam given by the Abidjan city. They ask you to spend a little to release the box and offer crores of rupees as the fruit of your little effort. Several innocent people were trapped and even flew to Abidjan to collect the box. But there is no trace of the box. Even Swami (Myself) played with one scam and made a long correspondence trying to change their attitude. Atheists, who believe only the gross materialistic world, surrounded Sankara. He tried to lead them from gross state to subtle state by introducing the subtle soul. The journey from gross state to subtle state can be a pre-rehearsal for the journey from imaginable creation to unimaginable God.

 

He stressed on the detachment from the body and attachment to the self. This gives a training to detach from the imaginable world and to attach to the unimaginable God. In fact the super self or God is unimaginable whereas the self or pure awareness is imaginable. Therefore, even awareness cannot be the common point in super self and self. How can you say the unimaginable God to possess the awareness? The awareness or life energy is imaginable item of the creation. The Scholars have misunderstood that God has awareness because God wished to create this universe. Since God wished God must be awareness. This logic applies only to the items of creation and not to the Creator who is beyond creation. The unimaginable God can wish even without being the awareness. He is above the laws of Creation. Veda says ‘Apanipaado Javano Graheeta…), which means that He can run without legs and He can catch without hands. Since God runs you say that God must have legs based on the natural laws. But the super natural God does not require legs to run. Similarly He can wish to create the world without Himself being the awareness.

 

If this is understood the super self is just beyond your imagination. The super self enters into one of the items of the creation to give its experience to you. If the medium is human form, it will be most convenient for the super self to preach you and receive your love and service directly. The super-self present in the human form is Sadguru who will lead you from the gross body and subtle body to the self and then finally to the super self, which is none-else than Himself. Therefore, identifying and catching the feet of Sadguru is most important than all these things mentioned by you.

 

The reason for Brahman to be stated, as awareness is that, Brahman enters only a living being and not an inert object. Ofcourse, the inert objects can be worshipped as models of Brahman by the lower cadre. Such worship is called as Pooja. If you see the incarnations, all of them were living beings only like fish, tortoise, pig etc. The living being can only do certain action independently. For the sake of human beings Brahman enters the human body because preaching and clarification of doubts is impossible if it is not a human body. Even the energetic bodies of Brahman contain innermost soul and inner subtle body. The energetic body is only the outer gross body. The subtle body is made of qualities.

 

If it is Brahma it is of Rajas quality, if it is Vishnu it is of Sattvam quality, if it is Siva it is of Tamas quality and if it is Datta it is of three qualities. When Brahman appeared as Yaksha to angles, it was Datta who tested them and talked to them. The inert item is not independent and is always controlled by life. Therefore, Brahman never enters any inert body, which is not self-controller. If Brahman is identified with any inert object, Brahman has to be controlled by another living being. This is impossible because Brahman is the controller of all the inert and living beings. Therefore, Veda says that Brahman can never exist in a statute or a photo (Na tasya Pratima ….). But the inert object can be kept as a representative of model of Brahman and can be worshipped. But such worship is very much limited to cleaning and decorating the statute etc., only and should not be extended to offering food, Dakshina (Money) etc. The priests and the managers of temples are taking that food and Dakshina keeping the statue in front of you. The priests and managers are not of the level of the Sadguru. Either they are enjoying or spending the money improperly. Therefore, the worship of statue is not liked by realized souls. But it should be respected because there is no other alternative except this for the beginners. Therefore, whenever a soul or self (Atman) is referred, Atman means a human being. In Sanskrit Atman means the human body. In fact even the soul is called as casual body, which is the inner, most component of the human body. The human body consists of the outer most gross body, the inner subtle body and the inner most casual body or soul. Therefore, whenever the word Atman comes in the sense of the Lord, it means the human body (Human being), which is charged and pervaded all over by the Lord. Only such self is the super self or Brahman or the Lord. This should not be extrapolated to every self or every human being. Every human being is only the human body, which is composite of the three bodies. Veda says that the Lord is controller of all the selves (Atmeswaram….). If every self is Lord Himself, how can He be controller of the self? It means He controls Himself. Therefore, the self-realization and attainment of self in the first of half of the spiritual journey means realizing and attaining your own self and finally fixing you in the self. But the word self in the second half of the journey means the human incarnation or Sadguru and here the self-realization means the recognition of Sadguru and the self-attainment here means catching hold of the feet of Sadguru. You should not sit at the end of first half of the journey thinking that yourself is Sadguru. Therefore, it is better to catch the Sadguru in the beginning itself so that you are well aware of the whole of journey in the beginning itself. Of course, you can go to the middle station by your self with the help of scripture and meditation. But there is a danger of your stagnation in the middle station thinking that, that is the final station. Once you are caught up by this Abidjan scam in the middle station, you will never go further, because the scam is so sweet. The Advaita scholars are caught up by this scam even the beginning of the journey itself. Therefore, nobody can save them.

[Freddy]

Spiritual Knowledge - Concepts Of Science

 

Science is the logical analysis of the items existing in this creation based on only one authority that is perception (Pratyaksha Pramanam). Even in the ancient logic, all the authorities (Pramanas) are based on perception only. You see the fire giving smoke. This is deduction or perception. When you see the smoke coming from a distance and do not see the fire, you say that fire exists there and this is induction or inference (Anumana Pramanam). But this induction is based on your previous deduction only. Somebody says to you that fire gives smoke. If that person is your dearest, you believe it and infer the fire from the smoke. This is authority of word ‘Shabdha Pramanam’.

 

Though you have not seen the fire, your dearest person has seen the smoke coming from fire. Like this all the authorities are based on perception only. I do not find any scripture of any Religion, which contradicts the experience of perception. There are four ways of authority. 1) Sruthi, which is the original scripture. 2) Smrithi, which is the commentaries of Scholars on the original scripture. 3) Yukthi, the logical analysis based on deduction, induction etc., 4) Anubhava, the experience based on the perception of the items in this world, which may be direct or indirect. Out of these four ways, the fourth way is the most powerful. If anything contradicts the fourth way, that is not valid or it may be a misinterpretation based on misunderstanding of the Sruthi or Smrithi or Yukthi. Thus Science and Philosophy are not separate. The very frame of the spiritual knowledge is Science only. Thus Science is the basic foundation and over all underlying structure of all the Scriptures.

 

A true Scientist should always stand on the perception and should not deny the experience derived by perception. If he denies, he is not a scientist. All top most scientists were philosophers and spiritual people only. Those scientists have travelled along the river of Science and reached its end, which is the ocean of spiritual knowledge called as philosophy. Philosophy is pervading all the branches of Science. Every branch of Science gives Ph.D as the final degree. Ph.D means Doctor in Philosophy. If Science and Philosophy are different, why this word Philosophy is regarded so much by all the branches of Science? Philosophy means the essence of the knowledge of every branch that is experienced when one reaches the end of that branch.

 

Therefore, the spiritual knowledge, which is the ocean is the Philosophy in which all branches of Science and all the Religions merge and loose their identity. A scientist who has not reached the end of Science and who is still travelling in the river only denies the existence of the ocean, since he is still perceiving the limiting boundaries of his knowledge – river. Such river-travellers are called as atheists. They neither see the ocean nor see the other rivers. Even the follower of any particular Religion is in the state of this atheist only. He is no better than these atheists because he believes that God is a particular form only, which is a small part of this creation. Some other followers believe God as formless, who is the all-pervading cosmic energy. Since cosmic energy is also a part of the creation, their form of God is very big. These atheist-scientist believe that this creation is God. Thus all these are atheists only. All these atheists, who may be scientific atheists or religious atheists, will realize the true nature of God only when they reach the end of the Science or Religion.

 

A scientific atheist is contradicting his own authority, which is the perception. When the human incarnation performs the inexplicable miracles, how can they deny the perception of such miracles? You may do that miracle in an alternative way, but that does not contradict the different path of the original miracle. One may get first class by copying. Such false first class cannot contradict the genuine first class. The result is same, but the process is different. You may produce ash by putting a fine powder of wet salt in the grews of your hand like a magician. The same ash may be produced by a divine miracle also. Since the result is same, can you argue that the process also should be same? Since the first class result is same in the case of the original student and a fraud student, do you mean that the hard work of the original student is fraud?

 

Do you mean that the original and fraud students are one and the same? Therefore, the same result can have two different processes. Since the result is same, processes need not be same. Do you mean that a result has only one process? Is it not contradicting the very fundamentals of Science?

 

A Chemical compound can be produced in several ways (Hess Law). Since the compound is same, do you mean that the alternative reactions are also one and the same? Same Chennai city can be reached by several ways. Since the end City is same, do you mean that all the paths are not different? Do you mean that all the paths are merged as one path only and thus there is only one path to reach the Chennai city? Therefore, conservative scientists and conservative religious followers can be categorized as immature analysts. The immaturity indicates their position in the river and maturity indicates their position in the end of the river, which is the ocean. Einstein, Newton, Heisenberg etc., are the top most scientists who have travelled and travelled along the Science River and reached the final spiritual ocean.

 

I do not remember saying a word about philosophy. What I said was that, "Religion is nonsense, while science is Enlightenment." When religion gives humankind cures for diseases and creates better living conditions perhaps then I will take notice. Otherwise, I stand by my statement.

[dattaswami]

I do not remember saying a word about philosophy. What I said was that, "Religion is nonsense, while science is Enlightenment." When religion gives humankind cures for diseases and creates better living conditions perhaps then I will take notice. Otherwise, I stand by my statement.

 

Dear Freddy;

 

Science and logical analysis

 

First you must be aware of the definition of Science. Science is defined as finding out the truth through logical analysis of perceived objects and the phenomena relating those objects. Objects and their phenomena are called as systems, which must have defined boundaries taken for study. There can be no philosophy without Science. In philosophy the ultimate goal is finding the truth. In such investigation the logical analysis must be adapted. Such analysis should not be mere feats of theoretical assumptions and imaginations of brain. The analysis must be based on the experience of the objects and their phenomena. No philosopher speaks philosophy leaving this basis. That is the reason why the word Philosophy is introduced as a common word in the highest degree Ph.D., of every subject. God is beyond this creation and cannot be experienced directly. I am not speaking about such original nature of God because it cannot be experienced directly. God gives His experience through an object, which acts as a medium. Once a medium transfers the experience of God, you can call that object as God or we can say that God is in that object or we can tell that the power of God has entered the object. In any case the object gives the experience of God and can be treated as God or representative of God. The electric power is coming from a battery. We say that the source of the power is the battery and we write the word power on it.

 

The best medium for the human beings is the human incarnation because God answers directly our questions. Even if you treat that human being as a messenger of God, it is only the God that is answering our questions through the human being. The questions related to God cannot be answered by anybody who is not God. Some may answer to some extent but God alone can answer to the full extent. All the human incarnations have answered all the questions in all the times about God. God has answered through them. You must give an equal chance to God also to argue His own case. He does not need any human being as an advocate.

 

All the previous spiritual preachers preached about God in a systematic way or the scientific way. The human incarnations performed miracles to show that this entire universe is only the imagination of God. You can create any object or change one object into another or make any object disappear or do anything as you like in the case of your imaginary world only. The reality cannot do like this with another equal reality. You cannot call the miracles as some magic. You may achieve the same result through magic but the path of achieving the same result need not be the only one path. For example the human incarnation created some sacred ash from His hand. You may also create the same ash from your hand by hiding the wet powder of sodium chloride in the grooves of your hand. The final product is one and the same. But the paths are different. You should not argue that your path is the only one true path. The same Sodium Chloride can be prepared through several chemical reactions taking different materials.

 

Since the final product is same, you should not argue that all the initial materials and paths are one and the same. You should not also argue that the materials and the reaction path, which you have followed to produce the Sodium Chloride is the only one true path and those are only the true materials. If you see the history of Science the indivisible atom has become divisible and now the sub atomic particles are also divisible as composites of quarks. The Science of yesterday is thrown out by the Science of today. You must sincerely find out the path in which that sacred ash was produced. Instead of doing that you are scolding and condemning that path. If a villager condemns your Science, you will laugh at him. Similarly the human incarnation will laugh at you if you blindly condemn the miracle.

 

Sincere scientists have approached the human incarnations and tried to observe the will-materialization very closely to find out the truth. Since there is no alternative to disprove it, they have agreed that the will- materialization is a true concept. Why you are limiting yourself to certain concepts only and discard the existence of concepts out of your boundaries? If you accept all the concepts proved by logical analysis and experience, then every thing is Science. You are limiting your village only as the earth. The analysis of miracles is experimental Science, which is the most important essence of Science. The ancient preachers preached based on the Science developed up to that day. For ex: - In ancient Indian logic it is said that space or vacuum has sound as its characteristic (Sabda Gunakamaakasam).

 

But sound does not pass through vacuum. We need not feel shy to discard that old concept. In Religion we accept that all old is gold and all new is wrong. The Scientist speaks reverse of this. Both are extremists. Spirituality or Philosophy examines both and takes truth from both and rejects false from both. The modern Science can discard the old Science because both are related to the concepts of the items existing in the creation. We should not feel sorry about it because we are bothered about the truth only, whether it is old or modern. But Science, which is the study of creation, cannot discard the Creator who is beyond this Creation. The Creator is neither any item of the Creation nor the total sum of the items of the creation.

 

The Creator, being beyond four-dimensional space and time, becomes unimaginable and so wishes to give His experience to His believers through the objects, which are within the realm of space and time. This gives the experience of the unimaginable, which is yet not imagined. The existence of unimaginable God is proved and it does not mean that the unimaginable should become imaginable. How do you accept unimaginable infinity, which has unimaginable boundaries? Since the boundaries of this infinite Universe cannot be imagined, can you say that the Universe does not exist?

Therefore, through out My knowledge, Science, which is defined as above, exists like the gold in a golden ornament. I have also dealt with the latest theories of Science separately to include them in the spiritual knowledge. I have given an equal status of every Religion to Science separately. Please go through all those topics patiently and don’t be hasty in your conclusions. Can you give Me any specific statement from My knowledge, which is not scientific? Your remark is only general without any specific example.

[IDMclean]

I fundementally disagree that Man can not know god, that would only hold true if absolutes were the only things.

 

I can know god, I can be god. God and I are not seperate, for god is who I am.

 

God is all knowing and all seeing, in quantum physics the particle knows the end of it's path even before it begins, for it has travelled, will travel and does travel all paths then decides the right path.

 

For omni-presence god would have to simutaniously exist in every place at every time during every event. This to me would indicate that God simply, is.

 

That God is the Universe and the Universe is God. The universe is not even just something physical. For that would not encompass all that is. For anything to be held seperate from the universe is funny, for the universe is all that exists, and god is all that exists.

 

For me, god is more than just a being on a throne, or a concept to be kept in a bottle on the shelf. God is all that I can see and know. The universe is all that I can see and know.

 

I ask, why confine what god can and cannot be, for if he/it/she is truely creator of all then why would he/it/she make particles that can both exist and not exist at the same time, and yet not hold this same capability?

 

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

[dattaswami]

I fundementally disagree that Man can not know god, that would only hold true if absolutes were the only things.

 

I can know god, I can be god. God and I are not seperate, for god is who I am.

 

God is all knowing and all seeing, in quantum physics the particle knows the end of it's path even before it begins, for it has travelled, will travel and does travel all paths then decides the right path.

 

For omni-presence god would have to simutaniously exist in every place at every time during every event. This to me would indicate that God simply, is.

 

That God is the Universe and the Universe is God. The universe is not even just something physical. For that would not encompass all that is. For anything to be held seperate from the universe is funny, for the universe is all that exists, and god is all that exists.

 

For me, god is more than just a being on a throne, or a concept to be kept in a bottle on the shelf. God is all that I can see and know. The universe is all that I can see and know.

 

I ask, why confine what god can and cannot be, for if he/it/she is truely creator of all then why would he/it/she make particles that can both exist and not exist at the same time, and yet not hold this same capability?

 

Dear Kick;

 

This entire creation is formed out of the imagination of Lord only. Thus creation doesnot contain God. The souls are the created by Lord only. One can catch hold of this soul by analysis of items in the creation and attain perfect peace. This is known as self realisation and it is not God realisation. It is half way only.

 

 

God created this universe for His entertainment. He enters the creation through the finest item of the creation that is human body. Thus He gives His presence through that particular human being known as "Human Incarnation", and God is present only in human incarnation and not in all other human beings who are ordinary souls. The main characteristics of Lord in huaman form is that He is the source of infinite true divine knowledge that removes all our doubts. For this very reason only He comes in human form to preach and uplift the humanity.

 

Soul being a created item and doesnot contain God and realisation of soul is not realisation of God, it is only self realisation. We are not God, we are only created souls.

 

God exist in human incarnation. By doing so He is not modified into that human body, He is beyond human body, but ordinary people by seeing the outer body think that He is a mere human being. This leads to the neglecting of Lord in human form.

 

If we are God then we should be able do the activity of God i.e., creation, sustinance and destroying. Nowadays poeple are in this wrong path thinking that they themself are God! How foolish it is!

 

You can at the most realise your soul by your own effort and it is not God realisation. God realisation consits of identifying the Lord in human form present in the present human generation and pleasing Him by participating in His mission of divine knowledge propagation without any selfish motive. It is a path of practical sacrifice and very very few people travel in that.

[IDMclean]

originally posted by dattaswami

This entire creation is formed out of the imagination of Lord only. Thus creation doesnot contain God.

 

The souls are the created by Lord only

 

Soul being a created item and doesnot contain God

 

If we are God then we should be able do the activity of God i.e., creation, sustinance and destroying.

 

By this logic, you verify the direct connection of all things to god, for if all things come from god then they are of god and therefore god resides within his creation, as I reside within mine.

 

We are capable of creation, and destruction. As much as is possible from within the univese.

 

God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them.

 

Dependent Origination

 

The enlightenment (Bodhi) of the Buddha was simultaneously his liberation from suffering and his insight into the nature of reality. The widely accepted doctrine of dependent origination states that any phenomenon ‘exists’ only because of the ‘existence’ of other phenomena in a complex web of cause and effect. For sentient beings, this amounts to a never-ending cycle of rebirth (saṃsāra) according to the law of karma (Pāli: kamma) and vipāka. Because all things are thus conditioned and transient (anitya, Pāli anicca), they have no real, independent identity (anātman, Pāli anatta) and so do not truly ‘exist’, although to ordinary minds they do appear to exist. All phenomena are thus fundamentally insubstantial and empty (śūnya'). Wise human beings, who possess "insight into the knowledge of how things are" (yathā-bhūta-ñāṇa-dassana, Sanskrit yathābhūtajñanadarśana), renounce attachment and clinging which cause suffering (duḥkha, Pāli dukkha), transform the energy of desire into awareness and understanding, and eventually attain nirvāṇa.

 

The Four Noble Truths

 

The Buddha taught that life was dissatisfactory because of craving, but that this condition was curable by following the Noble Eightfold Path (Sanskrit: Āryo 'ṣṭāṅgo Mārgaḥ , Pāli: Ariyo Aṭṭhaṅgiko Maggo). This teaching is called the Catvāry Āryasatyāni (Pali: Cattāri Ariyasaccāni), the "Four Noble Truths".

 

1. duḥkha (Pāli: dukkha) "suffering": All worldly life is unsatisfactory, disjointed, containing suffering.

2. samudaya "arising (of suffering)": There is a cause of suffering, which is attachment or desire (tṛṣṇā, Pāli taṇhā) rooted in ignorance (avidyā).

3. nirodha "cessation (of suffering)": There is an end of suffering, which is nirvāṇa (Pāli: nibbāna).

4. mārga (Pāli: magga) "path (to cessation)": There is a path that leads out of suffering, known as the Noble Eightfold Path.

 

The Four Noble Truths was the topic of the first sermon given by the Buddha after his enlightenment, which was given to the ascetics with whom he had practiced austerities.

 

The Noble Eightfold Path

 

The Noble Eightfold Path is the way to the cessation of suffering, the fourth part of the Four Noble Truths. In order to fully understand the noble truths and investigate whether they were in fact true, Buddha recommended that a certain path be followed which consists of:

 

1. Right View - samyag-dṛṣṭi, sammā-diṭṭhi

2. Right Resolve - samyak-saṃkalpa, sammā-saṅkappa

3. Right Speech - samyag-vāc, sammā-vācā

4. Right Conduct - samyak-karmānta, sammā-kammanta

5. Right Livelihood - samyag-ājīva, sammā-ājīva

6. Right Effort - samyag-vyāyāma, sammā-vāyāma

7. Right Mindfulness - samyak-smṛti, sammā-sati

8. Right Concentration - samyak-samādhi, sammā-samādhi

 

The word samyak means "turned to one point or against each other, universus or adversus; whole, entire, all; correct, right, true." [1] There are a number of ways to interpret the Eightfold Path. On one hand, the Noble Eightfold Path is spoken of as being a progressive series of stages through which the practitioner moves, the culmination of one leading to the beginning of another, whereas others see it as the states of the 'Path' as requiring simultaneous development. It is also common to categorise into prajñā (Pāli paññā, wisdom), śīla (Pāli sīla, virtuous behaviour) and samādhi (concentration).

 

Like I said, I am of god and he is of me and we are of each other. This does not put me (or anyone else) above or below or anysuch. It is mearly a statement of truth as I understand and percieve it.

 

All that is and that can be, is god. For god is.

[dattaswami]

By this logic, you verify the direct connection of all things to god, for if all things come from god then they are of god and therefore god resides within his creation, as I reside within mine.

 

We are capable of creation, and destruction. As much as is possible from within the univese.

Like I said, I am of god and he is of me and we are of each other. This does not put me (or anyone else) above or below or anysuch. It is mearly a statement of truth as I understand and percieve it. All that is and that can be, is god. For god is.

 

KickAssClown;

 

From the beginning of the creation of this world, man was searching for God. Some people were satisfied by realizing the existence of God, which was experienced by them through some items of creation and through some important incidents in the life. They never claimed that they have detected God [known Him completely].

 

They had only analyzed the entire creation and found that no item of the creation is God. They declared that nobody could detect God [know His real nature]. Therefore, they concluded that God is unimaginable. But they said that God exists because they have experienced the existence of God through some items of creation, which are imaginable and through some incidents, which can be analyzed. The medium through which they experienced God can never be God. Therefore, God was unimaginable for them. This is the correct approach to God.

 

 

But some egoistic people, who were very confident of their intelligence, analyzed and declared that they detected the real nature of God. They said that the real nature of God is awareness. They mean that awareness is God Himself. In saying so, they have claimed to have imagined God and for them, who are highly intellectual, God is imaginable [even though most people may not be able to imagine Him as awareness]. But in reality, they were either egoistic in claiming to have detected the real form of God or they were impatient to accept the unimaginable God. The so-called awareness discovered by these people can never be God because awareness is not a completely unimaginable item. Of course, one has to take lot of pains in imagining the pure awareness, which is very very near to the unimaginable God. The item, which is imagined by a lot of analysis and lot of difficulty, can only be an item imaginable with great difficulty. It can be treated as almost unimaginable but it cannot be the perfectly unimaginable God.

 

 

Several statements of the Veda clearly declare that God is completely unimaginable under all circumstances. Silence alone can indicate God. Silence means that no word can be used to indicate God. In the creation every imaginable item has a specific name, which cannot be used for any other imaginable item. For example the word pot means only a particular object. The word cloth means another particular object. You cannot use one word for any other object. But God can enter any item of the creation. Therefore, the name of every item can be used to indicate God, since there is no specific word for God, who is not a specific object at all. Even if God does not enter an item, the name of that item can be used to indicate God, because you are keeping that item as a representative of God.

 

For example God never enters an inert planet like the sun. But the sun can still represent God due to some similarities. God removes ignorance. The sun removes darkness. The lotus buds are opened by sun. The ignorant intelligence is also enlightened by God. Therefore, the sun can represent God to some extent. Therefore, the word ‘sun’ can also represent God. Thus, in one extreme end, no word can indicate God (Yato vachah-Veda). At the other extreme end, the name of any item into which God can enter, or any item which can represent God, can be used to indicate God. All the prayers to God such as the prayer of the thousand names (Sahasra Nama), indicate God. When a word indicates God, it is the name of the medium into which either God has entered or which stands as a representative of God. This means you can experience God through a specific medium when God enters it. Alternatively, you can also imagine the experience of the existence of God through a representative item like the sun.

 

You can experience the existence of God through a human incarnation like Lord Krishna, because God has entered and exists in the human body of Krishna. In case of the sun, you can imagine the existence of God through the properties of the sun. Thus, there is a difference between the worship of the human incarnation and the worship of the representative item like the sun, statue etc. The Veda says that you can worship the sun as God, which means that sun is not directly God (Adityam Brahma iti…Veda). There is a difference between the direct worship of the king and the indirect worship of his photograph. In both cases the king is pleased. But in the direct worship, the king is extremely pleased because every bit of your service is experienced by the king directly. When God enters the human body, God has not become the human body. God is in the human body.

 

Therefore, the human body is not God. You can only experience God through the human body. Therefore, by seeing the human body of the incarnation, you have not seen God, but you have only experienced God through that human body. Therefore, God is invisible. Of course, a devotee can be satisfied by treating the human body as God and can feel satisfied that he has seen God. From this angle the Veda says, “A blessed fellow has seen God” (Kaschit Dhirah…). This is only an assumption. You can assume an electric wire as the electric current because you experience the current by touching the wire anywhere. Therefore, for all practical purposes the electric wire is the current. Thus, there is a very narrow delicate margin between the reality and assumption in this case.

 

To solve this very delicate difference, you can say that the wire is the current from the point of experience of the existence of current and thus this assumption is perfectly correct. But if you say that you have actually seen the electric current, we must say that you have seen only the wire and not the current because the current is invisible. Therefore, the conclusion is that you can experience the existence of the current through the wire but you cannot see the current actually. Thus, God’s existence is experienced through the human incarnation but God is not imagined.

 

The the Gita says that nobody knows God (Mamtu Veda Nakaschana…). This verse establishes the complete unimaginability of God. Again the Gita says that one blessed devotee in millions, can experience the existence God (Kaschit mam…). These two verses will contradict with each other if you say that the first verse means that nobody knows God and the second verse means that one knows God. The first verse means that the real nature or form of God cannot be known. The second verse means that the existence of God can be known. The Veda also presents these two sides. Several Vedic statements reveal that God is completely unimaginable and can never be known. In the Veda, Lord Yama says that they (great sages) have come to know that God cannot be known (yasyamatam tasyamatam). This statement indicates the point that God is completely unimaginable. The Veda again says that only the existence of God can be known (Astiityevopalabdhavyah). This statement does not contradict the first statement. Thus, the Veda and the Gita are exactly synchronized in this context.

 

 

Awareness is indicated by the words like Atman (soul) or ‘I’. Advaita scholars feel that [by detecting the Atman] they have detected the real nature or form of God, which is the awareness. No doubt, awareness is almost an unimaginable item. But it does not mean that awareness is completely unimaginable. Of course, if you cross the awareness, nothing further is known. Awareness is in the climax position of the entire creation. It is the greatest of all the items of creation and therefore it is called as Brahman. It is the greatest among all the imaginable items. These scholars say that awareness is unimaginable to the majority of people. Therefore, they say that God is unimaginable with respect to the majority, who are ignorant. [They equate God to this Awareness].

 

Since scholars are in minority, only scholars can know the real form of God. This is their interpretation of the above two statements in the Veda and the Gita. They do not stop here. They go one step further and say that since awareness is in every human being. If anybody knows and identifies himself with the pure awareness present in his body, he becomes God because God is pure awareness. To support this idea, they quote the Veda which says that the knower of Brahman becomes Brahman (Brahma vit Brahmaiva bhavati). They also quote the Gita that the knower is God (Jnani Tvatmaiva…). The actual meaning of this Vedic statement is that God alone is the knower of God. The scholars reverse this and say that the knower of God becomes God. Their reverse meaning contradicts the Gita, which says that nobody can know God. The the Gita says that the knower is Atman, but it does not mean that the knower is God. This is because Atman is not God. This statement of the Gita only means that by self-realization one can become the Self or Atman.

[IDMclean]

Several statements of the Veda clearly declare that God is completely unimaginable under all circumstances. Silence alone can indicate God. Silence means that no word can be used to indicate God. In the creation every imaginable item has a specific name, which cannot be used for any other imaginable item. For example the word pot means only a particular object. The word cloth means another particular object. You cannot use one word for any other object. But God can enter any item of the creation.

 

Therefore, the name of every item can be used to indicate God, since there is no specific word for God, who is not a specific object at all. Even if God does not enter an item, the name of that item can be used to indicate God, because you are keeping that item as a representative of God.

 

All is of god. 1=1.

I am one. You are one, we are two that are one. All that exist and does not exist is one and zero. The only part of god that I can not know, is the part that I can not observe, the zero state.

 

Wikipedia, Anatta [/parse]]

 

Dependent Origination

 

Main article: pratitya-samutpada

 

Buddhist teaching tells us that all in life is impermanent and in a constant state of flux, and that any entity that exists does so only in dependence on the conditions of its arising, which are non-eternal. Therefore, any sense one might have of an abiding self or a soul is regarded as a misapprehension.

 

Buddhists hold that the notion of an abiding self is one of the main causes of human conflict, and that by realizing the nonexistence of our perceived self, 'we' may go beyond 'our' mundane desires. (Reference to 'oneself' or 'I' or 'me' for Buddhists is used merely conventionally.)

 

The Buddha in many later sutras, provided no confirmation the existence of a self or Atman a concept that was claimed central to many philosophers of his time, however in the oldest texts that exist in Buddhism, the Nikayas, the Buddha did at length affirm to his disciples (aryasavaka) that the "Soul was the only refuge, was the light within" [DN 2.100], and said the "Soul was that which was most beloved" (atta' paramo piya). Rather than directing his listeners to discover Atman, he taught that all clinging to concepts and ideas of a self are faulty and based on ignorance. The Buddha's teaching was apophatic and was not aimed at any concept of self created by birth, imagination, speculation, metaphysical study or through self-ideation. The five aggregates of form, feelings, perceptions, mental fabrications and consciousness were described as especially misleading, since they form the basis for an individual's clinging or aversion. He taught that once a monk renounces his clinging for all the five aggregates, through meditative insight, he realizes the bliss of non-clinging, and abides in wisdom. The Buddha clearly stated that all five aggregates are impermanent, just as the burning flame is inconstant in one sense, and that knowledge or wisdom is all that remains, just as the only thing constant about a flame is its fuel, or purpose.

 

Controversially, there has been and continues to be a minority of Mahayana Buddhists who understand the Buddhist doctrine of "non-Self" ("anatta"/"anatman") as relating solely to the ephemeral elements (the five "skandhas") of the being and not to the hidden and undying "Buddha-Principle" ("Buddha-nature") taught by the Mahayana Buddha to exist within the deeps of each person's mind (see section on "Anatman and the Tathagatagarbha Sutras" below).

 

The self is not separate from the form of God, and God therefore is not separate from the form of anything. I do not claim that any one thing is better or worse than another, I do not claim that god is only one thing, and I do not claim that one can know God in the entirety, only that one can realize that God is in all things at all times in all places, for God is he who is I AM.

[dattaswami]

All is of god. 1=1.

I am one. You are one, we are two that are one. All that exist and does not exist is one and zero. The only part of god that I can not know, is the part that I can not observe, the zero state.

 

 

 

The self is not separate from the form of God, and God therefore is not separate from the form of anything. I do not claim that any one thing is better or worse than another, I do not claim that god is only one thing, and I do not claim that one can know God in the entirety, only that one can realize that God is in all things at all times in all places, for God is he who is I AM.

 

KickAssClown;

 

The existence of God is experienced by you due to the will and grace of the Lord. Therefore, you are able to get that much information about God. Without His will and grace even that much information cannot be experienced by you. Beyond that, there is no will of God to realize His real nature. This is because, as long as you have some deficiency, you will not be proud. If you know the real nature of God, you will catch the hair of God in no time like the demon Bhasmasura. By this you will fall in the spiritual effort. To save you from this fall, God is keeping that one secret in His hand.

 

The teacher of martial arts keeps one type skill as a secret in his hands so that if the student fights with the teacher due to egoism, that one secret skill can be used to defeat the student and to destroy his egoism. A good student realizes this and keeps silent about that skill and he praises the teacher for his love for the student. An egoistic student tries to know that one secret skill. After some time, the egoistic student claims that that one secret skill is also known to him by his self-discovery. But the good student condemns the egoistic student and says that the secret skill discovered by him is already known and preached by the preacher.

 

Thus, he proves that the secret skill is always with the preacher and that every student must be humble before him. Similarly the Advaita scholar claims that he has discovered God as the pure awareness, which is the soul. But the real Vedic scholar condemns him by saying that pure awareness is one of the imaginable items of the imaginable creation alone. Thus, the secrecy of the real nature of God is maintained and every human being must be humble before God.

 

If you can succeed in proving that the soul is not God, the king is defeated and the war ends. The soul is the king of all the items of creation and it is almost unimaginable. In fact, realization and achievement of the soul by limiting yourself within the boundaries of pure awareness always is a very great achievement and should be highly appreciated. Realization of the soul is called as Brahma Jnana because the soul is Brahman or the greatest item of creation, which is also called as Atma Jnana, Jnana Yoga, Sankhya Yoga, Buddhi Yoga or just Yoga. By this achievement (Yoga) one gets full liberation (Moksha) from all the worldly bonds and tensions. One will attain perfect mental health, which is the basis of physical health. Thus, Yoga is very much followed even by doctors.

 

It is an important topic of medical science. It is only Pravrutti, but it is a very important requirement for entering into Nivrutti. It is like getting a good the rank in the entrance examination to get a seat in a professional college. Shankara stressed on this first step, which is the basis of the other steps. If the first step is removed, all the other steps will fall down. Liberation from all worldly bonds (Moksha) is strictly the last topic of Pravrutti and the first topic of Nivrutti. When you are detached from the gross body, all the family bonds disappear. When you are detached from the subtle body, all the qualities disappear and therefore the jealousy and egoism, which are the strongest qualities of the soul, will disappear. Only then are you eligible to recognize and serve the human incarnation of the Lord and please Him.

 

This is the final goal of the spiritual effort. Some people say that attainment of God is the final goal. But it is not correct. Going to the office and finding the officer is not the final goal. Pleasing the officer and by that getting your work done is the final goal. Of course, in the case of God there should be no aspiration of any selfish work, in which case alone will all your works be done in a fraction of second.

 

Sri Lakshman (Mumbai) enquired about the source of ‘I’. ‘I’ is a pulse stored either in the inert energy or being transported by the awareness-energy. The pulse itself is a form of energy or work. Work itself is a form of energy. Therefore, the inert energy is the source of I. The entire universe is the design of only this energy. Thus, all the items of creation are forms of this energy. Even matter is a condensed form of energy. Space is energy according to the latest science. When food is eaten, it is converted into energy during digestion. This is the conversion of matter into energy since both are inter-convertible.

 

You may treat the soul, which is indicated by I, either as inert energy or as awareness. If it is inert energy it is eternal. If it is awareness it is born in the morning and dies in the night during deep sleep. In any case there is no difference because awareness is a special form of work-energy that is produced by the association of the inert energy and the nervous system.

I give a very good example here.

 

The electricity stored in the battery is permanently energy. When this electric current flows into the electric bulb, light is produced. When the switch is put off, the light disappears but still its source, the electricity is stored in the battery is still energy permanently. The light is a temporary form of the electrical energy. Here the brain is the battery. The inert energy is the electricity. The nervous system is the electric bulb. The awareness is light. Light is a temporary form of electricity. Similarly, awareness is a temporary form of the eternal inert energy. The energy is in its permanent as well as temporary forms. Thus the soul can be the temporary awareness or it can be the permanent inert energy.

 

The word ‘inert’ is used in two senses. In one sense, the controller is always life energy or awareness and the controlled item is inert, which may be inert energy or inert matter. You can light the fire or you can put it off by pouring water. Thus, the fire-energy is in your control. But remember that when the fire attacks you, you are turned to ash against your will. Now the inert energy is the controller and the life energy is controlled.

 

Similarly, you can change the position of a stone as per your will. You are controlling the stone. But when a big stone falls on you; you are crushed against your will. Now the stone is controlling you. Therefore, life energy and inert energy (or inert matter) are like the two roommates. One may follow the other’s word and vice-versa in various contexts. In this sense, you cannot decide that awareness is always not inert. All the three items, which are the soul, the inert matter and the inert energy, are controlled by the Lord and from this angle, the awareness is always inert.

 

In the other sense, ‘awareness’ is defined as knowledge and ‘inert’ is defined as ignorance or absence of knowledge. In this sense also, knowledge is a special work-form of the inert energy done through the nervous system. In the inert matter or energy such nervous system is absent and therefore such special work (Awareness or knowledge) cannot be produced. The the Gita says that both the awareness and the inert energy (Para and Apara) are Prakriti (creation) alone. The the Gita further says that the Para is bearing this whole creation like the mud bearing the pot [mud bears the pot since mud is the cause of the pot]. This Para is material cause (Upadanam) as well as the designer-cause [also called as efficient cause] (Nimittam) of the universe.

 

You find either inert matter or inert energy everywhere in the world. Even the inert matter is inert energy. Therefore, this entire world is only inert energy. You do not find the awareness everywhere in the world in this manner. The inert energy is continuous and awareness is discontinuous, limited to living beings here and there. How can such discontinuous awareness bear the universe? Of course, if you forget the difference between awareness and inert energy by treating both essentially as energy alone, you can call the entire energy as awareness. But remember that the word awareness here does not mean that specific energy produced in the nervous system. You do not find the nervous system spreading all over the entire universe. Therefore, the whole creation can be simplified, as one item called as inert energy and it is not the creator. It is the entire creation.

 

Therefore, the Veda says that God created energy (Tat Tejo…). Here energy means the entire universe. The different forms of this energy are space, air, fire, water, solid (earth) and finally the life energy and awareness. The Veda says that God created energy and the Veda also says that God created space, air etc., in that sequence. In this context, fire is only that particular form of energy, which is a mixture of light and heat. Here fire should not be taken as the general energy. Since space is also energy, there is no contradiction in these two Vedic statements.

 

Therefore, in deep sleep, the pulse ‘I’ exists in the brain which may be treated as the RAM or CD (inert matter or inert energy). Even in the waking state you do not experience this pulse all the time. You speak of so many things without referring to or experiencing this I. Thus, in such times, even in the waking state the I is stored in the inert energy-bank. In the case of a mad man, this pulse is erased after he goes mad. In the case of a child this pulse of I has not yet been created and it does not exist in inert energy-bank. Thus, this pulse may exist in the bank in the waking state or may not even exist in the bank or in the awareness. Therefore, this point is of no use in the knowledge of God and all the effort of the Advaita scholar on this topic is only catching a rat after digging a big mountain.

 

Several people are misled by the imperfect analysis of these Advaita scholars. People are attracted by these scholars thinking it is a chance of winning a big lottery by buying a one-rupee ticket. The scholars claim that you can become God just by realizing the soul and limiting yourself to it. Anybody can be easily attracted by the promise of earning a one crore [ten million] lottery for a one-rupee ticket. They further say that each and every one can get this fund by simply purchasing the one-rupee ticket! Thus, this is bigger than a lottery! By simply knowing one’s self, everyone becomes God! Whoever purchases the ticket, wins the one crore lottery!

 

The Advaita scholars want some common point between the Lord and the human being. They assume that awareness is the common point because God also wished to create the universe. A wish is the characteristic of awareness. Thus, they bring down the Lord to the logical rules of nature. In nature it is perfectly correct to say that anything, which wishes, must have life energy or awareness. But this logic fails in the case of the Lord. He can wish without being the awareness. He is all pervading without being the space. He goes everywhere without being the air etc. The Veda says that the Lord runs without feet and catches without hands (Apani Pado…). How can you detect anything about the unimaginable God?

 

No point of God is known. Therefore, there is no question of any common point between God and a human being. All the points of the human being are known and are imaginable. Even the soul is imaginable although it may take lot of strain to imagine. Therefore, this path is totally absurd. Even if you assume that awareness is the common point, can you become God by just that one common point? You remove all the other points from God by saying that all the items other than awareness are not true [not real; unreal or mithya] and therefore God is limited to pure awareness only, in reality. By the same argument all other points in your Self are also not true and only awareness in your Self is true. Now you say that the common point, which is awareness, is only the truth. Therefore, you say that your soul is God.

 

This is similar to the following fantastic example. You say that both the king and you are human beings. Further, you say that all other items and points in both of you are not true. Therefore, it is true that you are the king. It is simply rejected by practical experience itself. Where is the Lord, who controls the summer sun? Where is the human being who dies by sunstroke in summer? Therefore, practical experience, scriptures and logic clearly prove that awareness is not God. But do not be discouraged by not being able to become God. By becoming the Self, you become eligible to serve and please the Lord in human form. By this path you can become even the master of God what to speak of becoming God!

 

Radha became the master of God and Hanuman became God. Both are liberated souls and both worshipped the human form of the Lord only. Liberation is essential to enter into the service of the Lord. Service means sacrifice, which pleases the Lord to the maximum extent. Sacrifice is nothing but liberation. By passing the entrance examination you get a seat in the professional college by which you can attain the professional degree in course of time. This is what Shankara meant by stating that you can become God by realizing the self. But by passing the entrance examination the Advaita scholars want to get the professional degree directly. Somebody says “You will become an engineer if you pass the entrance examination”. Here the intermediate step of getting the seat in engineering college and studying the engineering course for four years is understood [but not mentioned]. This intermediate step is hidden for encouraging the student to concentrate on the entrance examinations. Such encouragement is not cheating the student by hiding the truth. But it shows only the extreme interest and love for the student.

[IDMclean]

What you speak is based in the ideas of better and worse. Of awareness bound.

 

What I mean to discribe, but have inseficient communication to describe. Is that I have a piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle. You have another piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle. If we were to combine ourselves into a single individual, to connect our pieces of the puzzle then we would have yet another piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle.

 

In conventional geometry this is not possible, however in hyper geometry this becomes not only possible but the norm.

 

My awareness is limited to me, however for an entity that exists in all of Spacetime, Massenergy. In all of the dimensions and therefore in all places and things simulatiously, the true observer of which I am a small part, my awareness is not limited to me and is not limited to anything within the system. God is this true observer. His awareness is that of the universe, of all of creations, and perhaps even beyond it.

 

I never agreed with my teachers, they taught me good things but they always taught as if they held the final truth, but I knew in my heart and in my mind that they held a piece and they were right, and I held a piece and I was right and though seemingly conflicting we were both right.

 

General Relativity proves this. Two observers, moving relative to each other will observe different phenomina, and each one will be right. Only to the rest frame will an event be truely simultanious in observation.

 

I accept that I am fettered by the chains of being, however I also accept that if I listen I can hear the whispers of the universe, and I can come to know things outside of myself and my awareness. When I detach my awareness from my flesh form and place it into the universal conscience I can pull close to the true mind and can be gifted with true knowledge and wisdom.

[InfiniteNow]

Sorry... didn't feel like searching for the thread...

 

We need a "vomiting" smilie. I'd post it here too.

[cwes99_03]

That's funny. Obeying the principles in the Bible do allow one to avoid all kinds of hardships and physical ailments. Check it out.

 

In fact, the Bible promises an end to death, when was the last time science made such a promise. :lol: But otherwise, I make no agreements with the fantastical stuff on this thread, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

[IDMclean]

Thanks Cwes99_03.

 

The spirit down here in man and the spirit up there in the sun, in reality are only one spirit, and there is no other one.

- The Upanishads

 

All speech, action, and behavior are fluctuations of consciousness. All life emerges from, and is sustained in, consciousness. The whole universe is the expression of consciousness. The reality of the universe is one unbounded ocean of consciousness in motion.

- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

 

Consciousness is the basis of all life and the field of all possibilities. Its nature is to expand and unfold its full potential. The impulse to evolve is thus inherent in the very nature of life.

- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

 

All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think, we become.

- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

 

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.

- Albert Einstein

[dattaswami]

What you speak is based in the ideas of better and worse. Of awareness bound.

 

What I mean to discribe, but have inseficient communication to describe. Is that I have a piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle. You have another piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle. If we were to combine ourselves into a single individual, to connect our pieces of the puzzle then we would have yet another piece of the puzzle, which by itself is the whole puzzle.

 

In conventional geometry this is not possible, however in hyper geometry this becomes not only possible but the norm.

 

My awareness is limited to me, however for an entity that exists in all of Spacetime, Massenergy. In all of the dimensions and therefore in all places and things simulatiously, the true observer of which I am a small part, my awareness is not limited to me and is not limited to anything within the system. God is this true observer. His awareness is that of the universe, of all of creations, and perhaps even beyond it.

 

I never agreed with my teachers, they taught me good things but they always taught as if they held the final truth, but I knew in my heart and in my mind that they held a piece and they were right, and I held a piece and I was right and though seemingly conflicting we were both right.

 

General Relativity proves this. Two observers, moving relative to each other will observe different phenomina, and each one will be right. Only to the rest frame will an event be truely simultanious in observation.

 

I accept that I am fettered by the chains of being, however I also accept that if I listen I can hear the whispers of the universe, and I can come to know things outside of myself and my awareness. When I detach my awareness from my flesh form and place it into the universal conscience I can pull close to the true mind and can be gifted with true knowledge and wisdom.

 

KickAssClown;

 

 

From the angle of God all the inert energies are awareness alone because He is aware of the entire creation. Since, the entire creation and the entire inert energy (maintainer) are under His control, all the awareness is inert. The word inert means that which is controlled. All the living beings are also controlled by God and therefore all the living beings are also inert including the souls. The Veda says “Atmesvaram…” which means that God is controller of souls. The distinction between inert and awareness is only from the point of the living being. In the angle of the living being, the inert energy flowing through nervous system can alone be called as awareness.

 

In the final time of destruction of world, the spectatorship of God is withdrawn. The universe is in the state of imagination even during the time of the spectatorship of God. When the spectatorship is withdrawn, the universe exists in the same imaginary state. Thus, from the angle of God there is no difference between the state of existence or the state of dissolution for the universe. In both the states it is imagination and it is in a very subtle and negligible state. When the spectatorship is withdrawn, you can treat it as the state of deep sleep of God. In this state all the souls are also like inert pulses present in the computer chip. The souls will not experience the creation and therefore from the point of souls the creation is invisible or inexperienced. Such state is called ‘Avyaktam’, which means the state of inexperience or invisibility. For God also the universe exists in invisible state in the case of dissolution of world. From the point of God you should not say that the universe has been converted to a subtle state from a solid state because the universe is always subtle for God.

 

From the point of God, dissolution of the universe is only withdrawal of the spectatorship. A daydreamer withdraws himself from his imaginary world. He is no more a spectator and he is in deep sleep or in the waking state and does not interact with that imaginary world. In both these states the imaginary world exists and it is maintained by the inert energy called chittam. The imaginary world is subtle and negligible compared to the dreamer, whether the dreamer is a spectator of it or not.

 

Now from the point of view of the soul, the concept is quite different. In the time of dissolution of the world, the soul is not at all aware of the world. When the soul comes into the world from the state of dissolution of the world, the soul is experiences a solid world. Therefore, the world is solid for the soul during the time of existence of world and the same world is not experienced during the time of the dissolution of the world. Therefore, for the soul there are only two states regarding this world. Either the world is experienced as solid or the world is not at all experienced. Never does the world become imaginary to the soul. For God the world is always imaginary either in the state of existence or in the state of dissolution.

When God comes down by entering into a human body as a human incarnation, the situation is completely different.

 

When God identifies Himself with a human body and forgets Himself, the human incarnation experiences this world as solid. But the same God in human body, when He remembers Himself, this solid world becomes imaginary. In such a state where He remembers His original nature, He can pierce through a solid wall because the wall is only imaginary for Him. Shankara entered the house of Mandana Mishra through bolted doors in such a state. Now the point comes: Why should God enter a human body? The entertainment from the world is little when the world is viewed as only an imaginary world. The entertainment is full if the world is viewed as a solid world.

 

For getting full entertainment, God enters the human body and identifies Himself with that human body. After entering the human body also, if He constantly remembers Himself, then there is no meaning in entering the human body because in such a state the world looks imaginary at all times. God could remain in His original state and see the imaginary world continuously. He was having no entertainment before creating the imaginary world. After creating this imaginary world He got some entertainment. Something is better than nothing. After this He wanted full entertainment. Therefore, He entered the human form and became the human being for full entertainment.

 

Rama got full entertainment continuously because He never remembered His original state. The word Rama means entertainment. Krishna also got entertainment similarly but often He was disturbed and dragged back to His real state by the devotees and necessities. The word Krishna means ‘dragged’. This is clearly stated in the Veda (Ekaki Naramate…). Here Veda says that God created this universe for entertainment and after some time He entered the universe for full entertainment. Here the Veda says that after entering the human body He has become both Sat and Tyat. Sat means His original state and Tyat means leaving His original state and identifying with the state of a human being. Some interpret that God has entered everything and every living being or every human being. If that were so, He could not have any entertainment.

 

If He becomes every living being, then He can only enjoy all inert objects, in which He is not present. If He becomes every human being, He can enjoy all the inert objects and all the living beings other than human beings. In both these states the entertainment is not full. If He has become only one human being, the entertainment is full because in such a case He enjoys all the inert objects, all the living beings other than human beings and also all the other human beings. The scope of the objects of entertainment is widened to maximum extent in this case. Therefore, He becomes only one human being like Rama, Krishna, Jesus etc.

[Mike C]

Only one God created this entire Universe!!!

 

Hindus say that Brahman is the creator, Muslims say

That Allah is creator, Christians say that the creator is

Jehovah, all say that the creation is this entire world.

If Hindus say that Brahman created India, and if

Muslims say that Allah created Arabian countries and

If Christians say that Jehovah created the western countries,

The problem is solved, there can be three Gods together,

Who have created the three parts of the earth separately.

 

But this is not so, each religion says that their God only

Created the entire world, unfortunately there is one world!

One world only! Come on, all of you sit together here

And give me the final conclusion after debate, otherwise,

The scientists are laughing on all of you! Shame to all!

 

They criticize that these religions do not have even

The basic logic, which is the fundamental common sense.

Because of you, the greatest God is also mocked by them

They say that the religions are rigid conservatisms!

Even a small boy is putting this question to all of you.

 

Stop all your discourses and first answer this question.

If you want to say that God created the entire world,

You have to accept that there is one God only always

And that His names are all the above three names.

 

We see in the world a single person having three names.

If there is one God, He only created this entire world.

All the human beings are invariably His children only.

No Father is partial to a single child and therefore

He must have preached the same knowledge to all

In different languages and in different methodologies

To different levels, this is Universal Spirituality.

 

At the Lotus Feet of His Holiness Sri Dattaswami

 

Anil Antony

 

SPAMLINK REMOVED

Universal Spirituality for World Peace

SPAMLINK REMOVED

 

It is obvious you are not a physicist.

 

I am an amateur scientist and my view is that there was no creator of the physical world because the Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy say so.

 

However, when it comes to the 'biological' world, then that is where the problem is.

The living Nature says that there are a number of Gods by my interpretation, so it teaches a multiple God system.

 

Mike C

[HydrogenBond]

If you look at the history and progression of religion, the most primitive forms of religion were connected to nature worship. The next step added a human element that created half-human half-animal characters. This then evolved into mythologies where humanoid figures, with advanced capability appear. This was the polytheism stage of religion. The next stage unified this divergence into monotheism, bringing with it a polarization via law. Christ went the next logical step building a bridge to God based on faith instead of law. Law is sort of a collective thing, whereas faith is something more individual. It was time for humans to become individuals.

 

If you parallel this religious evolution, to the parts of the human personality that were developed, one can see the logical progression of the mind. The nature worship saw the divinity in animals and plants. It had a connection to natural instincts and could find the place where human instinct fits in. The shift to humanoid-beast reflected an increase in human will power allowing humans to exceed the design parameters of natural human instinct. This could be done both by sinking lower than natural or going beyond it. That is why some characters were frightening and others easier to accept.

 

The characters of mythology started to humanize things. Some beasts from the past remained, since this learned connection was still there. If you look at mythology it was a giant soap opera. The purpose was to allow human to develop and extend the range of emotional relationships. It was less for the mind, since it was an irrational system. It was there to help develop and mold some of the irrational sides of human nature. It was sort of set up using specialization, with each god or goddess being a specialists. For example, if one needed adrenaline, one would pray to Mars. If one needed extra endorphins then they may do a ritual using Venus, etc. But Venus was fickle so one needed to avoid her dark side or become addicted. The gods were sort of mind tools that could be used to gain elevated specialty states. With the training and specialization humans become more human.

 

Monotheism and the law of Moses changed the parameters. What this did was bring the mind into the game. The emotional soap opera was repressed so will power would be connected to the mind instead of emotions and instincts. Law of good and evil is the precursor of reason. Both cause and affect and good and evil are examples of 2-D thinking. The good and evil populated the x,y axis with data of x=good and y=evil, allowing cause-affect in the plane. The problem that creates is all the data point in the plane are a blend of good and evil since they have both x and y coordinates. The result were human rationalizing in the gray area and then trying to call x,y either x or y. It was a blend of reason using irrational motivation.

 

With Jesus the parameters of religion changed. The charisma of faith is more intuitive than rational-emotional. Intuition is not something that is easily transferred with law and language. It is more individual. It sort of symbolized an evolution into greater human autonomy. That is why it was considered a problem, when it began, since it wasn't under law. For example, Jesus would teach if someone thinks something is unclean to them it is unclean. In other words, one person's subjectivity belonged to them and was not suppose to become a collective law for everyone. One's individuality was telling that person what was right only for them. This was/is very advanced, even for today, with most people stuck layers back.

 

In modern times, atheists don't believe in God but they do have a special place in their minds and hearts for nature. In some respects, they are beginning a religious re-evolution starting at the beginning. It is actually very useful to know what is man's natural relationship with nature. There is a lot a history with half-human half-beast, where natural is unclear. The relativity of human behavior sort of default to half-human half-beast since this may have become programmed into genetics through time.

 

For the sake of argument, say the atheists continued to evolved in a parallel way to religion, but with modern objectivity helping the process. The process begins with finding a natural place for humans within nature. The next phase of religion begins the half-human half-animal stage. With natural better defined, we can truncate with the lower than natural human behavior, since it will be much better defined. Next, when it goes into the soap opera of mythology phase, with the lower than animal behavior not part of the drama, the emotional buttons are cleaner and not so bestial.

 

When we evolve into the monotheism and law stage to evolve the strength of the mind over the compulsions of emotions, the compulsions are not as dark so the law required is a little more flexible. This set the stage for greater human autonomy with far more natural capability.