Earth axis

[Dandav]

Please look at the following image

 

 

Why the Earth axis rotation is not parallel with the right angle to orbit?

Why it is tilted at 23.5 degrees, exhibits approximate axial parallelism, maintaining its direction towards Polaris (the "North Star") year-round?

Why at least the Earth magnetic axis it isn't parallel with the axis rotation?

Why it is Asymmetrical - at the north pole the axis of magnetic is located between the right angle to orbit (13.5 degree) to the Earth axis rotation (10 degree) while it the south pole it is almost parallel to the right angle to orbit?

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Dandav

[Moontanman]

19 hours ago, Dandav said:

Please look at the following image

 

 

Why the Earth axis rotation is not parallel with the right angle to orbit?

Why it is tilted at 23.5 degrees, exhibits approximate axial parallelism, maintaining its direction towards Polaris (the "North Star") year-round?

Why at least the Earth magnetic axis it isn't parallel with the axis rotation?

Why it is Asymmetrical - at the north pole the axis of magnetic is located between the right angle to orbit (13.5 degree) to the Earth axis rotation (10 degree) while it the south pole it is almost parallel to the right angle to orbit?

 

Many sources connect those things with the impact of Thea, it formed the Moon, sped up the rotation of the Earth, and tilted the Earth on its axis. I'm less sure of the magnetic field, on other planets magnetic fields don't always follow the axis of rotation. See... 

  https://www.britannica.com/place/Neptune-planet/The-magnetic-field-and-magnetosphere

https://www.britannica.com/place/Uranus-planet/The-magnetic-field-and-magnetosphere#ref54292

Not to mention Uranus which rotates on its side and alternately points it's north and south poles toward the sun as it rolls around the sun on it's side.  

Edited December 5, 2023 by Moontanman

[Dandav]

On 12/5/2023 at 4:10 PM, Moontanman said:

Many sources connect those things with the impact of Thea, it formed the Moon, sped up the rotation of the Earth, and tilted the Earth on its axis. I'm less sure of the magnetic field, on other planets magnetic fields don't always follow the axis of rotation. See... 

Thanks

I wonder how could it be that the Earth Axis of rotation could keep its location billion years after the Earth impact with Thea.

Actually, the Earth is a spinning celestial object and it is moving in space.

Therefore, can we consider it as some sort of a gyro?

In the following article there is a confirmation for that:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/503159/is-the-earth-a-gyro

"A spinning celestial body can indeed be considered to be a gyroscope."

If so, let's try to understand the gyroscopic torque:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/gyroscopic-torque

"A gyroscopic torque will result if the axis of the flywheel is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis. The magnitude of the torque is the product of the flywheel rotor moment of inertia,"

Therefore, the Earth torque will result as the axis of the Earth is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis.

Please see the following video clip at 23 & 48 min:

 

 

?Therefore, how could it be that the Earth axis of rotation ignore that Gyro torque and keeps its current location for so long time without any external force for help

Edited December 7, 2023 by Dandav

[Moontanman]

11 hours ago, Dandav said:

Thanks

I wonder how could it be that the Earth Axis of rotation could keep its location billion years after the Earth impact with Thea.

Actually, the Earth is a spinning celestial object and it is moving in space.

Therefore, can we consider it as some sort of a gyro?

In the following article there is a confirmation for that:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/503159/is-the-earth-a-gyro

"A spinning celestial body can indeed be considered to be a gyroscope."

If so, let's try to understand the gyroscopic torque:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/gyroscopic-torque

"A gyroscopic torque will result if the axis of the flywheel is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis. The magnitude of the torque is the product of the flywheel rotor moment of inertia,"

Therefore, the Earth torque will result as the axis of the Earth is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis.

Please see the following video clip at 23 & 48 min:

 

 

?Therefore, how could it be that the Earth axis of rotation ignore that Gyro torque and keeps its current location for so long time without any external force for help

The gravitational pull of the Moon is thought to keep the Earth's axis stable. 

[Dandav]

On 12/7/2023 at 4:42 PM, Moontanman said:

The gravitational pull of the Moon is thought to keep the Earth's axis stable. 

Thanks

Do you mean tidal gravitational pull?

Do we know how the gravitational pull (or even tidal gravitational pull) of the Moon can keep the earth axis stable?

[pzkpfw]

The torque applied to the gyro in the youtube video is being applied by direct force on the axle of the wheel.

You're missing that Earth is free-floating in space. As it orbits the sun, there's no similar force being applied to its axis of rotation.

Seeing many of your threads (in other forums mostly) I think you tend to think of gravity - especially in the case of orbits - as being like little strings that hold things together.

e.g. It leads to some of your bogus ideas on our suns orbit around/within our galaxy, and it's something you need to let go of (even if you don't realise it's what you are doing).

 

[Dandav]

6 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

The torque applied to the gyro in the youtube video is being applied by direct force on the axle of the wheel.

Yes, you are correct.

Never the less, do you agree that  "A spinning celestial body can indeed be considered to be a gyroscope"?

If so, " the Earth torque will result as the axis of the Earth is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis".

6 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

You're missing that Earth is free-floating in space. As it orbits the sun, there's no similar force being applied to its axis of rotation.

This is also correct.

If the Earth is a free-floating in space than as it cross the space around the Sun while it is spinning, then the Gyro Torgue should flip it constantly.

However, the Earth is quite stable and doesn't flip due to this torque.

So, what kind of force is there which could keep it so stable?

Please also be aware that there is another key issue with regards to this gyro torque.

We assume that the Earth can keep its spinning motion for billions of years as there is no friction or spinning energy lost in space.

However, that Earth' torque energy isn't for free. It must consume its energy from the Earth' spinning motion.

Therefore, it is expected that the Earth torque energy would reduce dramatically its spinning motion.

As the Earth keeps its spinning motion and its stability regardless to that torque, then we must understand what could be the source for that activity.

I think that the following answer is correct.

On 12/7/2023 at 4:42 PM, Moontanman said:

The gravitational pull of the Moon is thought to keep the Earth's axis stable. 

However, we need to understand how it really works.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dandav

[OceanBreeze]

3 hours ago, Dandav said:

However, we need to understand how it really works.

The Earth’s axis is not as stable as you seem to think.
Have you not heard of The Precession of the Equinoxes?
Although today that expression has fallen out of favor for some reason.
These days it is simply called Axial Precession.
If you want to understand it, this is a good place to start.
From Wiki:
“In astronomy, axial precession is a gravity-induced, slow, and continuous change in the orientation of an astronomical body's rotational axis. In the absence of precession, the astronomical body's orbit would show axial parallelism.[2] In particular, axial precession can refer to the gradual shift in the orientation of Earth's axis of rotation in a cycle of approximately 26,000 years.[1] This is similar to the precession of a spinning top, with the axis tracing out a pair of cones joined at their apices. The term "precession" typically refers only to this largest part of the motion; other changes in the alignment of Earth's axis—nutation and polar motion—are much smaller in magnitude.

Earth's precession was historically called the precession of the equinoxes, because the equinoxes moved westward along the ecliptic relative to the fixed stars, opposite to the yearly motion of the Sun along the ecliptic. Historically,[3] the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes is usually attributed in the West to the 2nd-century-BC astronomer Hipparchus. With improvements in the ability to calculate the gravitational force between planets during the first half of the nineteenth century, it was recognized that the ecliptic itself moved slightly, which was named planetary precession, as early as 1863, while the dominant component was named lunisolar precession.[4] Their combination was named general precession, instead of precession of the equinoxes.

Lunisolar precession is caused by the gravitational forces of the Moon and Sun on Earth's equatorial bulge, causing Earth's axis to move with respect to inertial space. Planetary precession (an advance) is due to the small angle between the gravitational force of the other planets on Earth and its orbital plane (the ecliptic), causing the plane of the ecliptic to shift slightly relative to inertial space. Lunisolar precession is about 500 times greater than planetary precession.[5] In addition to the Moon and Sun, the other planets also cause a small movement of Earth's axis in inertial space, making the contrast in the terms lunisolar versus planetary misleading, so in 2006 the International Astronomical Union recommended that the dominant component be renamed the precession of the equator, and the minor component be renamed precession of the ecliptic, but their combination is still named general precession.[6] Many references to the old terms exist in publications predating the change.”

 

[Moontanman]

8 hours ago, Dandav said:

Yes, you are correct.

Never the less, do you agree that  "A spinning celestial body can indeed be considered to be a gyroscope"?

If so, " the Earth torque will result as the axis of the Earth is rotated and it acts perpendicular to the rotor axis".

This is also correct.

If the Earth is a free-floating in space than as it cross the space around the Sun while it is spinning, then the Gyro Torgue should flip it constantly.

However, the Earth is quite stable and doesn't flip due to this torque.

So, what kind of force is there which could keep it so stable?

Please also be aware that there is another key issue with regards to this gyro torque.

We assume that the Earth can keep its spinning motion for billions of years as there is no friction or spinning energy lost in space.

However, that Earth' torque energy isn't for free. It must consume its energy from the Earth' spinning motion.

Therefore, it is expected that the Earth torque energy would reduce dramatically its spinning motion.

As the Earth keeps its spinning motion and its stability regardless to that torque, then we must understand what could be the source for that activity.

I think that the following answer is correct.

However, we need to understand how it really works.

https://www.science.org/content/article/who-needs-moon

Quote

 The steadily orbiting moon’s gravitational tug counteracts these disturbances, and Earth’s axial tilt never veers too far from the current value of 23.5°, where 0° would mean the axis was perpendicular to the plane of Earth’s orbit around the sun.

 

[Dandav]

8 hours ago, OceanBreeze said:

The Earth’s axis is not as stable as you seem to think.
Have you not heard of The Precession of the Equinoxes?
Although today that expression has fallen out of favor for some reason.
These days it is simply called Axial Precession.

Thanks for this great articale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession

It is stated:

Precession of a gyroscope. In a similar way to how the force from the table generates this phenomenon of precession in the spinning gyro, the gravitational pull of the Sun and Moon on the Earth's equatorial bulge generates a very slow precession of the Earth's axis (see §Cause). This off-center push or pull causes a torque, and a torque on a spinning body results in precession. The gyro can be analyzed in its parts, and each part within the disk is trying to fall, but the rotation brings it from down to up, and the net result of all particles going through this is precession.

 

 

As the motion of the earth is identical to the above Gyro then let's try to understand how it really works.

We clearly see that this Gyro is hold at its lower point of its axis in order to perform this Axial Precession.

Do you agree that if we assume that the Earth is free-floating in space then it can't perform the Axial Precession?

17 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

You're missing that Earth is free-floating in space

Therefore, what kind of force holds the Earth' axis of rotation at its south geographic pole  in order to perform this Axial Precession.?

 

With regards to the Torque energy:

Do you agree that this torque energy is consumed from the spinning motion?

If so, how long this Gyro could keep its Axial Precession without any external energy to keep on with its spinning motion (assuming that there is no friction)?

Therefore, how could it be that the Earth can keep its spinning momentum for several billion years while it is losing energy to the torque' Axial Precession?

 

2 hours ago, Moontanman said:

 The steadily orbiting moon’s gravitational tug counteracts these disturbances, and Earth’s axial tilt never veers too far from the current value of 23.5°, where 0° would mean the axis was perpendicular to the plane of Earth’s orbit around the sun.

There is no clear explanation how exactly the moon could set the stability of the Earth axis, how it holds the Earth' axis of rotation at its south

geographic pole  in order to perform this Axial Precession and how the Earth could keep its spinning momentum for several billion years without external energy.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dandav

[Dandav]

I have just found an interesting article about the Earth Torque

It is stated:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-physics/chapter/10-7-gyroscopic-effects-vector-aspects-of-angular-momentum/

"Earth itself acts like a gigantic gyroscope. Its angular momentum is along its axis and points at Polaris, the North Star."

However, they offer the following Integrated Concept

The axis of Earth makes a 23.5° angle with a direction perpendicular to the plane of Earth’s orbit. As shown in Figure 6, this axis precesses, making one complete rotation in 25,780 y.
(b) What is the average torque producing this change in angular momentum?

The answer is:

(b) 1.39 × 10^22 N ⋅ m

So, now we have real value for that torque which can be transformed into real energy lost from the spinning motion of the earth.

Based on that value, I wonder how do we believe that the Earth could keep its spinning motion for several billions of years.

[Dandav]

In the following article it is stated that the rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2.14×10^29 J.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_energy

"The Earth has a moment of inertia, I = 8.04×10^37 kg·m2.[3] Therefore, it has a rotational kinetic energy of 2.14×10^29 J."

Technically, we can calculate the Earth torque energy per Year and deduct if from the Earth' rotational kinetic energy.

It seems to me that even after few million years, there should be significant reduction in the Earth' rotational kinetic energy.

If that is correct, then it is very clear that somehow there must be a force that constantly add the missing energy to the spinning motion.

Therefore, there are two main forces that are needed to meet the earth Gyro motion:

1. There is a need for a force that can hold the earth at its axis in order to perform the Axial Precession. (As the Earth is clearly not free-floating Gyro in space).

2. There is a need for a force that add constantly the missing energy for the Earth spinning motion.

Do you confirm that without those two important forces, the Earth won't be able to behave as it is?

If so, how those forces are created?

We agree on the moon. But how the moon contributes those two forces?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Dandav

[OceanBreeze]

18 hours ago, Dandav said:

Thanks for this great articale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession

It is stated:

Precession of a gyroscope. In a similar way to how the force from the table generates this phenomenon of precession in the spinning gyro, the gravitational pull of the Sun and Moon on the Earth's equatorial bulge generates a very slow precession of the Earth's axis (see §Cause). This off-center push or pull causes a torque, and a torque on a spinning body results in precession. The gyro can be analyzed in its parts, and each part within the disk is trying to fall, but the rotation brings it from down to up, and the net result of all particles going through this is precession.

 

 

As the motion of the earth is identical to the above Gyro then let's try to understand how it really works.

We clearly see that this Gyro is hold at its lower point of its axis in order to perform this Axial Precession.

Do you agree that if we assume that the Earth is free-floating in space then it can't perform the Axial Precession?

 

The gyroscope is shown for Illustrative purposes, but the axial precession of the Earth is not like that of the gyroscope.

There is nothing holding the South Pole fixed in position while only the North Pole precesses. In fact, both poles precess the same amount.

You may have missed this statement in the Wiki article I quoted:

“This is similar to the precession of a spinning top, with the axis tracing out a pair of cones joined at their apices.”

There is also this gif:

I think we give more attention to the precession of the North Pole simply because there is a polar star to focus on.

At present there is no notable South polar star, but that will change in about 65,000 years when Sirius moves into that position.

[Dandav]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:19 PM, OceanBreeze said:

The gyroscope is shown for Illustrative purposes, but the axial precession of the Earth is not like that of the gyroscope.

 

There is nothing holding the South Pole fixed in position while only the North Pole precesses. In fact, both poles precess the same amount.

 

You may have missed this statement in the Wiki article I quoted:

 

“This is similar to the precession of a spinning top, with the axis tracing out a pair of cones joined at their apices.”

There is also this gif:

 

 

 

 

I think we give more attention to the precession of the North Pole simply because there is a polar star to focus on.

At present there is no notable South polar star, but that will change in about 65,000 years when Sirius moves into that position.

Thanks for your message.

It is very helpful.

However, this video represents a full cycle n 26,000 years. It is clear that in one year (one full orbital cycle around the Sun) we might consider that the earth is stable as a rock. Therefore, this video doesn't contradict the following key understanding:

1. The Earth acts as a gigantic gyroscope:

On 12/9/2023 at 10:02 PM, Dandav said:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-physics/chapter/10-7-gyroscopic-effects-vector-aspects-of-angular-momentum/

"Earth itself acts like a gigantic gyroscope. Its angular momentum is along its axis and points at Polaris, the North Star."

2. If this gigantic gyroscope was free in space it is expected that it would flip several times due to the Gyro torque in just one cycle around the Sun. 

We can check it by setting a massive gyroscope in orbital path around the Earth and verify the outcome. Therefore, the Earth must be stable due to some sort of external force.

3. The Torque energy is taken from the Earth spinning momentum/energy. Even after just few million years the Earth spinning energy should be reduced dramatically. Therefore, the hope that the Earth could keep its spinning motion for billion years is just a pure imagination.

4. There is a need for external force to compensate the lost torque energy and to keep the Earth spinning motion.  

5. Do you agree with the following message about the key impact of the moon on the Earth Gyro stability:

On 12/7/2023 at 4:42 PM, Moontanman said:

The gravitational pull of the Moon is thought to keep the Earth's axis stable. 

If you agree with the above, would you kindly explain how the moon can keep the stability of the Earth Gyro and how it can help the Earth to overcome the lost of the spinning motion energy due to the lost Gyro torque energy?

[Dandav]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:02 PM, Dandav said:

I have just found an interesting article about the Earth Torque

It is stated:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-physics/chapter/10-7-gyroscopic-effects-vector-aspects-of-angular-momentum/

"Earth itself acts like a gigantic gyroscope. Its angular momentum is along its axis and points at Polaris, the North Star."

However, they offer the following Integrated Concept

The axis of Earth makes a 23.5° angle with a direction perpendicular to the plane of Earth’s orbit. As shown in Figure 6, this axis precesses, making one complete rotation in 25,780 y.
(b) What is the average torque producing this change in angular momentum?

The answer is:

(b) 1.39 × 10^22 N ⋅ m

So, now we have real value for that torque which can be transformed into real energy lost from the spinning motion of the earth.

Based on that value, I wonder how do we believe that the Earth could keep its spinning motion for several billions of years.

I hope that it is very clear by now that the spinning Earth acts like a gigantic gyroscope.

Therefore, it generates a Torque which is 1.39 × 10^22 N ⋅ m

Unfortunately, there is no free energy in our universe.

That torque energy must come from the Earth spinning energy.

So, how the science community totally ignore that key understanding and hope that the Earth (and any other celestial object) could keep its spinning momentum for billion years as there is no torque energy and no spinning energy lost?

This missing spinning energy issue should be the most important problem to overcome!

However, I would like to start with the Earth stability and then move to the missing spinning energy problem.

[Moontanman]

8 hours ago, Dandav said:

I hope that it is very clear by now that the spinning Earth acts like a gigantic gyroscope.

 

No! The only thing that is clear is that you are ignoring everything that is being said here if it doesn't agree with you. Several times you have been given explanations and you continue to just hand wave them away. This thread is very close to being closed. 

[Dandav]

14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

No! 

Dear Moontanman

Do you mean that the following message is incorrect:

On 12/12/2023 at 6:51 AM, Dandav said:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-physics/chapter/10-7-gyroscopic-effects-vector-aspects-of-angular-momentum/

"Earth itself acts like a gigantic gyroscope.

 

14 hours ago, Moontanman said:

The only thing that is clear is that you are ignoring everything that is being said here if it doesn't agree with you.

Several times you have been given explanations and you continue to just hand wave them away

Would you kindly highlight which explanation I have ignored?

with regards to the following message:

On 12/9/2023 at 5:08 PM, Moontanman said:

Quote

 The steadily orbiting moon’s gravitational tug counteracts these disturbances, and Earth’s axial tilt never veers too far from the current value of 23.5°, where 0° would mean the axis was perpendicular to the plane of Earth’s orbit around the sun.

I fully agree with the idea that the moon gravitational force is vital for the Earth stability, but there is no explanation for how the steadily orbiting moon’s gravitational tug can counteract these disturbances.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Dandav