Obesity: Why are we getting fat? :epizza:

[Nitack]

Show me some science to support your "bet".

It just sounds like more prejudice and unsupported generalisation.

The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism.

 

First, wonderful that you can type in a google search and paste links... did you actually read those studies? Because if you had, they pretty much support the notions that i have advocated all along, that obesity rate increases are due to lifestyle choices of individuals and not boogyman medical conditions. They do say that Obesity is on the rise in Sub-Saharan Africa (up to a whopping 4%), however the rates increases are mostly in urban women and researchers found correlations to increased calorie consumption and decreased activity pointing to the cause...

 

Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in ...

People in sub-Saharan Africa appear not always to perceive obesity as a health risk. The local perception of obesity and physical inactivity as signs of ...

Obesity and Undernutrition and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Rural and Urban Gambian Communities -

You seemed to completely not read this article. Did you notice the results?

Of the study population, 216 of 5373 (4.0%) were obese; however, the prevalence of obesity was much higher (32.6%) among urban women 35 years or older

That seems to correspond with what i originally said, that obesity has a much lower prevalence in Sub-Saharan Africa

 

Next up

Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central ...

Central obesity appears to be the key determinant of the prevalence of the MS in sub Saharan Africa. Many MS definitions may not be appropriate for African ...

Metabolic syndrome in a sub-Saharan African setting: central obesity may be the key determinant

Nothing in here disputes what I said about Sub-Saharan Africa either. Once again, did you read this at all? Beyond that, the rates of metabolic syndrom were also ridiculously lower than in first-world countries, which if it does not contribute evidence in support of what i said, it certainly does not contradict it.

No subject in the rural area in either gender (NCEP-ATP III definition) or men (IDF definition) had the MS while its prevalence in the urban area was under 2.0 % (Table 2).

 

Oh, this one is good

Disease and mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa - Google Books Result

by Dean T. Jamison, World Bank, Richard G ... - 2006 - Medical - 387 pages

Table 18.3 shows the prevalence of obesity from Sub- Saharan Africa reported in recent literature. South Africa has the highest prevalence of obesity in ...

books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0821363972...

One again... did you actually read? I have continually been shouted down when I state that I feel that increased calorie consumption combined with decreased exercise lays at the heart of the issue. How about we look at what is contained in this dandy book you googled but did not read...

Urbanization, associated with changing dietary patters and less physical activity and a rise in socioeconomic status is occurring across Sub-Saharan Africa countries. All these factors lead to an increase in the prevalence of overweight and obese people in the region. This phenomena is illustrated in a study by Kruger and colleagues (2002) of the nutrition and physical activity patterns of a large sample of people from the North West Province of South Africa exposed to all levels of urbanization. The researchers found a significant association between household income and measures of obesity. They also saw a positive correlation between total energy intake, fat intake, and BMI. The physical activity index correlated negatively with BMI and waste circumference.

Emphasis mine.

 

So, obesity is increasing in third world countires including Sub-Saharan Africa and the literature you so kindly linked supports the notion that change in diet and exercise paters lay at the heart of the issue.

 

As for my "bet"/assumption, I can't find any studies that indicate self-perception of the cause of obesity in obese individuals. Which does not meant that my assumption is wrong. You are making a mistake in logic, Argument from silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You assume that because you haven't seen any evidence in support that my assumption is wrong, even though you have not provided any evidence to contradict what i said. Also, you are rather inflamatory by throwing around words like "prejudice", "unsupported gernalisation" and "The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism." All of those are loaded terms and are also forms of logical fallacy. You can't attack what I said, so you attack me. To name a few:

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Appeal to consequences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judgmental language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ignoratio elenchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Michaelangelica, I normally appreciate the diligence with which you ferret all of the new scientific information about obesity. However, I am really getting the impression that there is an agenda behind that diligence. Rather than seeking cause it really seems like you are more interested in finding justification for obesity in order to paint anyone who feels that obesity is a self-caused and preventable condition as a "anti-fatty bigot". To respond to that sentiment, I happen to be a fatty weighing in at 230 lbs, down from 250. I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

[Michaelangelica]

As for my "bet"/assumption, I can't find any studies that indicate self-perception of the cause of obesity in obese individuals. Which does not meant that my assumption is wrong. You are making a mistake in logic,

No, it does not prove it is right either.

 

url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence]Argument from silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]. You assume that because you haven't seen any evidence in support that my assumption is wrong, even though you have not provided any evidence to contradict what i said. Also, you are rather inflamatory by throwing around words like "prejudice", "unsupported gernalisation" and "The same sorts of stereotyping & attitudes you find in racism." All of those are loaded terms and are also forms of logical fallacy. You can't attack what I said, so you attack me. To name a few:

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were ment to be laoded. I am cranky. They are not "logical falicy" just a comparison of the dynamics of both trypes of prejudice.

I't's your 'bet' you provide the evidence for it.

why can't I attack you? I am attcking what you said because it is an assumption that has no basis in fact.

 

Yes it was lazy of me to google refences at you but there are so many I have already posted in this thread that show that obesity is a world wide phenomenon.

I am getting tired of the evidence I am presenting being dismissed without proper argument or discussion of the science just ill informed assumoptions and prejudice.

 

I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

Really? your posts don't reveal that.

"feeling" is not proof.

 

Off my "anti-agressive to idocy pills" this month which may explain part of my "priclyness"

 

More from Google

Agriculture Is One of the Most Polluting and Dangerous Industries

AlterNet - San Francisco,CA,USA

While we don't know how much was used, we do know that nearly 30 million people in the US are drinking water contaminated with Atrazine, Simazine

Managing Waste in Shanty Towns « Environmental Public Health Today

By ij2r1

A new study with rats shows that long-term exposure to the common agricultural pesticide atrazine causes weight gain in animals fed normal diets and obesity in those fed high fat diets. Chromium: another threat to whale health? ...

Environmental Public Health Today - Environmental Public Health Today

 

Higher Rates Of Obesity Among The Homeless « dietpillsformen.net ...

In rich nations, first world countries, obesity rates are on the rise. This we might expect due to excess, even though we also spend more on drugs and otherwise to counteract obesity. In poor countries, the food is often of poor quality ...

dietpillsformen.net editor's blog - dietpillsformen.net editor’s blog

 

Do You Believe in Fairies, Unicorns, or the BMI?

30.0 and above = Obese

 

(Tom Cruise, with a height of 5'7" and weight of 201 lbs, has a body mass index of 31.5, while the younger Schwarzenegger, at just over six feet tall and about 235 pounds, had a BMI over 31.

Do You Believe in Fairies, Unicorns, or the BMI?

 

 

video on neglected causes of obesity

Healthwatch: Unusual Causes Of Obesity - WBZ Boston - Recherche vidéo sur Truveo

 

typical "shooting from the hip without propper investigation

And when our politicians discovered what a fat little country we had become they became obsessed about obesity. Soon, every MSP and councillor in the land was trying to rid us of this national embarrassment. Fizzy drinks would be banned from schools and hamburgers would be replaced by couscous and guacamole suppers. Indeed, the selling of lemonade to impressionable youngsters almost became a capital offence. There was a proposal to rewrite Enid Blyton's Famous Five books to delete all references to the vile substance.

Kevin McKenna: What will they ban next? Don't go there | Comment is free | The Observer

 

The modern era has brought a unique host of problems. The number of American children with chronic illnesses has roughly quadrupled in the past 50 years, including an almost fourfold increase in childhood obesity in the past three decades and twice the asthma rates since the 1980s.

. . . the number of ailments involving malfunctions of the immune system has gone up as well.

 

Multiple sclerosis, a disease where the fatty insulation around the nervous system comes under attack, appears to be on the rise, and type I diabetes, "a childhood form of diabetes almost unheard of at the turn of the 20th century, is up from one in 5,000 or 10,000 to one in 250 in some regions," said Joel Weinstock, chief of gastroenterology at Tufts University Medical Center in Massachusetts.

But the immune system needs to be controlled, needs to not act up when exposed to things that aren't truly injuring you

like the millions of "new" chemicals in the environment?

Why Are Humans Always So Sick? | LiveScience

Thyroid Cancer Increasing, Scientists Don't Know Why

But researchers say they really don’t know what is causing the increase.”

 

Scientists are pointing to factors such as heredity, chemical pollutants, diet, obesity, and increased radiation exposure via CT scans.

Newswise Medical News | Thyroid Cancer Increasing, Scientists Don't Know Why

But with obesity we all assume we all know why. Its simple just read some of the energyi-energy out posts.

[pamela]

I am not bigoted towards overweight people, I simply feel that the vast majority of people who are obese got that way through their own poor choices, rather than the notion of a biological or environmental factor that has suddenly caused the rate of obesity to scyrockete.

Consider your statement with the term poor as reflected from a financial position. Ever been to a food bank and see what is given out? 75 percent of food given is bread, the other 25 is canned crap and pork patties. Totally not conducive to a svelt figure. When you are poor and hungry, you will eat what is available. If this is all that is provided to feed your kids, guess what, that is what will be eaten.

Go shopping with your 0 income and come home with cheapo crappo frozen pizzas, chef boyardee for meat, vegetables and fruit? are you kidding me? who can afford that.. Nitack, look at the economy, these are poor times and many people cannot afford to feed themselves or their kids the expensive healthy food they deserve. They gotta eat this crap. Bread is death.. causes weight gain and makes you so sleepy you cant move to exercise. So many people do not have any choice, much less a poor choice.There are several factors contributing to obesity in this thread, and here is just one more to add to the list

[Nitack]

Consider your statement with the term poor as reflected from a financial position. Ever been to a food bank and see what is given out? 75 percent of food given is bread, the other 25 is canned crap and pork patties. Totally not conducive to a svelt figure. When you are poor and hungry, you will eat what is available. If this is all that is provided to feed your kids, guess what, that is what will be eaten.

Go shopping with your 0 income and come home with cheapo crappo frozen pizzas, chef boyardee for meat, vegetables and fruit? are you kidding me? who can afford that.. Nitack, look at the economy, these are poor times and many people cannot afford to feed themselves or their kids the expensive healthy food they deserve. They gotta eat this crap. Bread is death.. causes weight gain and makes you so sleepy you cant move to exercise. So many people do not have any choice, much less a poor choice.There are several factors contributing to obesity in this thread, and here is just one more to add to the list

I understand the correlation between first world poverty and obesity. I never contested that or even addressed it, so not sure why you are addressing your comment to me.

 

No, it does not prove it is right either.

It may not be proven right, but you dismissed my hypothesis out of hand with out a shred of evidence to base your dismissal on. Is that scientific???

 

Argue in circles all you want, you have an axe to grind and are attacking me for not sharing your view point.

 

They were ment to be laoded. I am cranky. They are not "logical falicy" just a comparison of the dynamics of both trypes of prejudice.

I't's your 'bet' you provide the evidence for it.

why can't I attack you? I am attcking what you said because it is an assumption that has no basis in fact.

They are logical fallacies and I pointed out exactly which ones. I'm glad your passionate in your beliefs and that you want to show the world that it is not the fault of obese people why they are obese. We need passionate people in this world, but that doesn't excuse your hostility and bias, both of which are poison pills to an academic discussion.

 

Yes it was lazy of me to google refences at you but there are so many I have already posted in this thread that show that obesity is a world wide phenomenon.

I am getting tired of the evidence I am presenting being dismissed without proper argument or discussion of the science just ill informed assumoptions and prejudice.

No evidence is being dismissed. It is just not being given the same weight and interpretation that you have given it. You think you are presenting conclusive proof that obesity is not the result of the actions of the individual. However, all you are presenting is evidence that there are mitigating factors that influence how a persons body handles either the Calories being taken in or the Calories being used. It is an important distinction because the evidence that you are presenting does not in any way discount my belief or the theories that I have put forth based on the laws of physics.

 

It appears to me that you are unhappy that your evidence is not the silver bullet that you had hoped. You have an axe to grind, you are looking for a specific outcome rather than looking for the truth.

 

Really? your posts don't reveal that.

"feeling" is not proof.

I never said that feeling was proof, but you never proved that my feeling was wrong.

 

Another thing, my posts have never indicated a prejudice against overweight people. You read into it what you wanted to see. My posts have consistently indicated a belief based on my interpretation of the evidence that obesity is ultimately the result of the choices that a person makes and that we all have the ability to make the choices that would avoid or fix obesity.

 

Are you going to gloss over that? Are you going to ignore what I actually said in favor of the vilification you want to happen? Your arguments take the same shape as creationism trying to masquerade as science. You use the right words, structure it in a similar way, but ignore any argument or evidence that does not agree with you. You traffic in loose logic and flawed arguments, misrepresentation and slander. But you feel better because you get to lash out at the guy who doesn't agree with your pet theory.

[pamela]

Nitack, i addressed you because of your statement. I am sure you are aware of our economical situation,but i wanted you to see that often times,it is not about a poor choice; there is no choice.:Glasses:

[mynah]

In the part of Africa where I live many poor people are overweight. These people live mostly on a local version of maize porridge. Recently nutritionists bemoaned the fact that most South Africans don't eat the recommended five portions of fresh fruit and vegetables per day - but presumably they don't have to budget as carefully as the majority of the population, otherwise they may have noticed that the prices of fresh produce have escalated dramatically in the past few years. With many people, eating a less than optimum diet is not a personal choice.

[Moontanman]

I can say from personal experience that what you eat is very important and eating good is difficult not to mention expensive. I have concentrated on eating better the last couple of months and I have dropped 20 pounds. It made a big difference and walking has become an option and I feel much better. I am lucky to have a choice, so many do not and starchy food remains a staple for for many people even here in what is supposed to be among the best places to live in the world. Even though it is a choice it's often a difficult one and far too often an impossible choice to eat right in the correct amounts.

[mynah]

From time to time I follow a 14 day health diet containing lots of fresh vegetables - but it is ridiculously expensive and time-consuming. As I live on my own, I inevitably end up throwing mountains of rotting stuff away. Have those studying obesity ever considered the effects on eating habits of having smaller families/childless couples/many single and divorced people compared to a few decades ago? My parents had five kids and the whole family never ever dined in a restaurant together until we were adults. In comparison, many people nowadays find it cheaper to dine out or get takeaways much of the time rather than buy a variety of fresh produce.

[pamela]

From time to time I follow a 14 day health diet containing lots of fresh vegetables - but it is ridiculously expensive and time-consuming. As I live on my own, I inevitably end up throwing mountains of rotting stuff away. Have those studying obesity ever considered the effects on eating habits of having smaller families/childless couples/many single and divorced people compared to a few decades ago? My parents had five kids and the whole family never ever dined in a restaurant together until we were adults. In comparison, many people nowadays find it cheaper to dine out or get takeaways much of the time rather than buy a variety of fresh produce.

I know for me, when i was married and there was 2 incomes, no problem having plenty of healthy food. Being able to shop at the upscale grocery stores with the sounds of classical music and coffee samples , was a pleasant experience.Now, being single, and feeling the effects of unemployment for a year, fighting the chaos at Walmart, is awful. Where there used to be ice cream for a treat, now its fruit and yoghurt.Amazing how they took strawberries for granted then, and now the look of excitement. It really reminds me of the 150 dollar rotten cherry tomato of Soylent Green. It has become a precious commodity in our house.It is easy to fall into buying cheap junk, when you worry about not having enough to feed your children. In these desperate times, i am sure obesity has risen in children for this very reason.Consider how many single parents are out there, just scraping to pay the rent.If there is anything in there fridge, it would be amazing. More likely, canned spaghettios, bread from the food bank, or the 99ct crappy meal from the local fast, shall we call it food, establishment

[Michaelangelica]

more prejudice?

The ABC has dumped a segment of its hit television show The Gruen Transfer which joked about the Holocaust, Jews, black people and homosexuals.

 

The corporation's lawyers stepped in and canned half of the segment in which two ad agencies compete to sell the unsellable, in this case obesity.

The part of the segment made by Sydney agency, The Foundry, was found to be racist and discriminatory, and will not go to air on tonight's show.

Gruen Transfer skit went too far for the ABC | Wil Anderson

 

Gruen Transfer Fat Pride Off Air | The Inspiration Room Daily

The ad, however, is online at Fat Pride - Fat Pride Home and The Foundry's Anti-discrimination Ad.

 

Click on the image below to play the video in YouTube (HD)

 

BTW

I don't criticise people, just what they say.

[Michaelangelica]

Further research into the effects of POPs may reveal many answers we would prefer to ignore.

Obesity's helper in triggering diabetes

12 April 2007 by Aria Pearson

Magazine issue 2599. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.

. . .

While obesity is thought to be a major cause, there is more and more evidence to suggest that pollutants also play a key role

If true, it could turn the conventional wisdom of how obesity causes diabetes on its head. Emerging evidence suggests that pollutants stored in body fat may be contributing to the ongoing rise of type 2 diabetes.

 

While obesity is still thought to be a major cause, there is more and more evidence to suggest that persistent organic pollutants (POPs) also play a key role.

 

While obesity is thought to be a major cause, there is more and more evidence to suggest that pollutants also play a key role

POPs are synthetic chemicals that can accumulate in the fatty tissue of animals. Many POPs - such as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), which were used as coolants in electrical equipment, and pesticides such as DDT - have been banned in developed countries, but they remain in the food chain and often end up in people.

 

Last year, Duk-Hee Lee at Kyungpook National University in Daegu, South Korea, and her colleagues reported that people with higher levels of six different POPs were more likely to have diabetes than people with low levels of POPs (New Scientist, 30 September 2006, p 18).

 

Now, a follow-up study published last month suggests an association in non-diabetic people between certain pesticides, PCBs and insulin resistance - a precursor to diabetes (Diabetes Care, vol 30, p 622). Fat people with POPs in their blood were more likely to develop insulin resistance than thin people with POPs, but the expected association between obesity and insulin resistance disappeared in people with no POPs. "This suggests the possibility that POPs stored in fat tissue, not obesity itself, may be a key factor for the development of type 2 diabetes," says Lee.

 

The information used by the researchers was designed to be representative of the general population in the US. "That's the somewhat shocking implication," says David Jacobs at the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, who supervised Lee's research. "The association exists at everyday background levels of POPs."

 

The precise mechanism by which POPs could contribute to diabetes remains a mystery. Some PCBs, such as dioxin, are known to interfere with genes that control insulin sensitivity, says Lee, although dioxin was not studied by her group.

Obesity's helper in triggering diabetes - health - 12 April 2007 - New Scientist

 

Could the diabetes epidemic be down to pollution?

15 September 2008 Science news and science jobs from New Scientist - New Scientist

News Service Phyllida Brown

Ask why diabetes is epidemic in the 21st century and most people will point the finger at bad diet, laziness and obesity. According to a small but growing group of scientists, though, the real culprit is a family of toxic chemicals known as persistent organic pollutants, or POPs.

If these researchers are right, POPs - which include some of the most reviled chemicals ever created, including dioxins, DDT and PCBs - may be key players in the web of events that lead people to develop the disease.

The claim has yet to attract widespread attention from mainstream diabetes research. Even its champions were initially surprised by it. "I had never even heard of POPs until 2005," says Duk-Hee Lee, an epidemiologist at Kyungpook National University in Daegu, Korea, who led the work.

Lee and her co-workers are now convinced, albeit reluctantly, that they are onto something.

"The hypothesis is one that I wish were not true," says her colleague David Jacobs of the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis.

http://www.fnehin.ca/uploads/docs/Could_the_diabetes_epidemic_be_down_to_pollution.pdf

[paigetheoracle]

I said in a previous post it could be something like a histamine reaction Mike and it seems you've found something that sadly agrees (perhaps Man is not going to go out on a bang but a Wimpey?)

[paigetheoracle]

I here there are some medical conditions that make people more prone to become overweight - not overweight prone to it. These people just have to live with it, like people that have food allergies or diabeties

 

True and staying in bed makes you fatter because of Leptin suppression (Walter Reed Army Medical Centre) and even monkeys in zoos put on weight, where those in the wild regulate consumption of protein (Australian researchers studying Spider Monkeys): Couch potato-ism in action.:)

[lemit]

So . . . Spider monkeys like TV and junk food? I think that was an episode on "The Simpsons."

 

--lemit

[Nitack]

Weight Loss Weapon -- Carb-cutting Enzyme Stopped By Bean Extract, Endocrinologists Say

Weight Loss Weapon

Carb-cutting Enzyme Stopped By Bean Extract, Endocrinologists Say

 

April 1, 2007 — UCLA researchers have found an extract in white kidney beans may help the body stop carbs from breaking down into sugars. A digestive enzyme in the body normally acts like scissors, literally cutting starches into little sugars. Phase 2 stops the enzyme from cutting, so the starches stay in the body as long fibers and are burned off quicker. Patients in the clinical studies who took Phase 2 lost body fat, not lean muscle.

[Michaelangelica]

I said in a previous post it could be something like a histamine reaction Mike and it seems you've found something that sadly agrees (perhaps Man is not going to go out on a bang but a Wimpey?)

POPs would certainly explain the world wide nature of this epidemic as they just spread out. they don't degrade in the common use of the tem they sometimes even turn into nastier stuff (DDT becomes DDE) I posted on the DDT thread that DDt impregnated mosquito nets being given away by the UN to poor african villagers are mostly ending up being used as fishing nets, wedding dresses, and fruit/food drying nets.

 

I don't think Australia even has the technology for identifying all chlorinated hydrocarbons some Syndney fishermen were just found to have high levels of some compound POP left in Sydney Harbour by Union Crabide now Dow- but the blood had to be sent to Germany to be tested! Interestingly, and counter-intuitively, the kids had higher levels than the parents.

 

High Pesticide Levels Found In Fruit-based Drinks In Some Countries Outside United States

ScienceDaily (Dec. 16, 2008) — In the first worldwide study of pesticides in fruit-based soft drinks, researchers in Spain are reporting relatively high levels of pesticides in drinks in some countries, especially the United Kingdom and Spain. Drinks sampled from the United States, however, had relatively low levels, the researchers note.

High Pesticide Levels Found In Fruit-based Drinks In Some Countries Outside United States

so its just not the corn syrup you have to worry about!

We import a lot of juice from places like Brazil, especially orange juice. Most orange farmers here are just ripping out their trees.

 

Obesity And Depression May Be Linked

 

ScienceDaily (June 6, 2008) — A major review reveals that research indicates people who are obese may be more likely to become depressed, and people who are depressed may be more likely to become obese.

 

So I wonder is that before or after obesity causing drugs like Zyprexa or Mirtazon (& Valium family sleeping pills?) are prescribed for the depression?

Obesity And Depression May Be Linked

 

many poor cannot afford good dental care. It is abig problem in Australia. Dental healt care for the poor is almost unavailable.

Obesity Associated With Periodontal Disease

 

ScienceDaily (Apr. 6, 2009) — Investigators from the Harvard School of Public Health and the University of Puerto Rico asked "Is there a prospective association between obesity and periodontal disease?"

Obesity Associated With Periodontal Disease

[Nitack]

Interesting how scientific studies that don't conform to certain peoples pet theories never make it here.

 

Increased Food Intake Alone Explains Rise In Obesity In United States, Study Finds

Increased Food Intake Alone Explains Rise In Obesity In United States, Study Finds

 

ScienceDaily (May 8, 2009) — New research that uses an innovative approach to study, for the first time, the relative contributions of food and exercise habits to the development of the obesity epidemic has concluded that the rise in obesity in the United States since the 1970s was virtually all due to increased energy intake.

 

I seem to remember saying the same exact thing and being accused of being prejudice against obese people and also being called over simplistic.