Defining the electromagnetic wave....

[infamous]

Lately we have had threads developing ideas about time, mass, and gravity. I would like to hear what the members of this forum have to offer about their opinions on the character of the electromagnetic wave.

 

Of what is a wave constructed?

Is a wave only the distorted geometry of the vacuum?

If the electromagnetic wave is the transporter of energy thru the vacuum, can we distinguish between them or are they one in the same?

Please give this last question some worthy consideration, I suspect there may be some subtle differences between the wave and the energy that created it.

 

Any thoughts........................................?

[hallenrm]

If the electromagnetic wave is the transporter of energy thru the vacuum, can we distinguish between them or are they one in the same?

Please give this last question some worthy consideration, I suspect there may be some subtle differences between the wave and the energy that created it.

 

Any thoughts........................................?

 

Sure! Electromagnetic waves are due to two fundamental concept/properties of matter; charge and magnetism> The electromagnetic waves, as we understand them today, are a result of Maxwell's theory.

 

If and when, we will go beyond the Maxwell's theory (just as relativity opened a new space beyond classical mechanics), there can be electromagnetic waves different from the em waves we know today.

 

A step further! Can there be interaction beyond that due to electric charge alone? (magnetism is a result of motion of charged particles), say because of the motion of mass?

 

That's all anybody's guess!! I am sure someday in the future, someone will unravel it!

 

I am waiting for that day:) :cup: :)

[Farsight]

Matter? What matter? And what is matter other than some exhibited property of "the vacuum", of spacetime?

 

I have a concept of electromagnetic waves as self-propagating distortions of spacetime properties. They propagate because there are two different types of distortion, each "instantly" creating the other, where "instant" means the speed of time or the speed of light. I can grasp the idea of forces being distortions in something we can't see, and I can handle Kaluza-Klein concept of electromagnetism being a distortion in a fifth dimension while gravity is a distortion of space versus time, but I don't understand why this is now outdated.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza-Klein_theory

 

I'd certainly appreciate it if anybody can give me a handle on all this.

[Bo]

hystorically Kaluza klein theory was not widely accepted because of the presence of a massless scalar field. (called the radion in pure KK theories and called the dilaton in string theory).

This is troublesome; because first of all; for the theory to make sense the scalar may not be massless and secondly; if it is not massless; but just by some small correction very light, it should have been observed.

Nowadays people are much less afraid of scalar fields and (because of the enourmous amount of work string theorists put into this isues) We now know how to give the dilaton a mass and -if we want to- also include the weak and strong interactions in our KK construction. (I am not realy sure of the last statement is also true without string theory...)

So I would say KK theory is far from aboandoned; it is one of the cornerstones of string theory.

 

Bo

[Qfwfq]

Is a wave only the distorted geometry of the vacuum?

Not so for electromagnetism because the force isn't proportianal to mass, so acceleration isn't the same for all corpuscles. The geometric interpretation therefore doesn't hold up, as it does for gravitation.

[IDMclean]

A packet of Electromagnetism, a photon, is defined as an exact balance of Electric Field perpendicular to the Magnetic Field propagating along the x-axis, each Field at 90* from the other.

 

 

EM being defined by:

 

Electromagnetic Wave Equation

 

The wave equation for a plane electric wave traveling in the x direction in space is

 

 

with the same form applying to the magnetic field wave in a plane perpendicular the electric field. Both the electric field and the magnetic field are perpendicular to the direction of travel x. The symbol c represents the speed of light or other electromagnetic waves. The wave equation for electromagnetic waves arises from Maxwell's equations. The form of a plane wave solution for the electric field is

 

 

and that for the magnetic field

 

 

To be consistent with Maxwell's equations, these solutions must be related by

 

 

The magnetic field B is perpendicular to the electric field E in the orientation where the vector product E x B is in the direction of the propagation of the wave.

 

Source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/emwv.html#c1

[infamous]

A packet of Electromagnetism, a photon, is defined as an exact balance of Electric Field perpendicular to the Magnetic Field propagating along the x-axis, each Field at 90* from the other.

 

 

Speaking of photons; It is commonly thought that the photon can exist as either a particle or as a wave. According to current theory, this is somewhat missleading. the photon is thought to possess both characteristics at the same time. As I've said, this is according to current theory but, what if current theory is biased due to the experiment itself. I'll explain:

 

Suppose that the electromagnetic wave exists as only a wave in the vacuum, not until it interacts with matter does it take on the form of a point particle. I understand that this is pure speculation and there may already exist an experiment that will prove me wrong on this idea. However, logic tells me that any experiment conducted on this example will certainly influence the outcome I've predicted.

 

Any thoughts?....................Infy

[IDMclean]

Suppose that the electromagnetic wave exists as only a wave in the vacuum, not until it interacts with matter does it take on the form of a point particle.

 

Your absolutely right. Infact that is exactly what was observed in the experiements. That is why it is that Light is both particle and wave at the same time.

[InfiniteNow]

Suppose that the electromagnetic wave exists as only a wave in the vacuum, not until it interacts with matter does it take on the form of a point particle. ....Any thoughts?....................Infy

 

What's getting me with the above is that the dual slit experiment is clearly not conducted in a vacuum... any laboratory right here on Earth in fact... yet light still demonstrates wave qualities when tested in this way. I think this would be one key chink in that statements armor, but I'm really a novice at most of this material myself so cannot speak with much authority on the topic.

 

Nice set of questions though Infy. Keep it up. :eek:

[infamous]

Your absolutely right. Infact that is exactly what was observed in the experiements. That is why it is that Light is both particle and wave at the same time.

That ofcourse would be because the wave experiences no passage of time from the point it is created until it reaches it's destination. If we could hitch a ride on the wave, time would have no meaning traveling at the rate of 186,282 miles/sec. Now then, if we could slow things down a bit, say to around 60 miles/hr, we could catch the wave in it's pristine condition before it becomes a point particle we call the photon. This is the search I'm undertaking; How would we describe the character of the wave before it becomes a particle? Would it be proper to describe this wave as just a 2 dimensional geometric distortion of the vacuum with the electric and magnetic at right angles to each other? I realize this is just a hypothetical and may not have a reasonable translation in the real world, however, to understand the real world we may at times have to ask these unusal questions........Infy

[IDMclean]

That sounds like my question that I asked when I learned of the definition of light, and energy.

 

What happens if you seperate these two fields? What happens when you have Electro or Magento only?

 

Permittivity

Permeability

 

per·mit·tiv·i·ty (pûrm-tv-t)

n. pl. per·mit·tiv·i·ties

 

A measure of the ability of a material to resist the formation of an electric field within it. Also called dielectric constant, relative permittivity.

 

per·me·a·bil·i·ty (pûrm--bl-t)

n. pl. per·me·a·bil·i·ties

 

1. The property or condition of being permeable.

2. The rate of flow of a liquid or gas through a porous material.

[infamous]

That sounds like my question that I asked when I learned of the definition of light, and energy.

 

What happens if you seperate these two fields? What happens when you have Electro or Magento only?

 

Permittivity

Permeability

With all due respect, not really KAC; I'm leaving the electro and magnetic waves set a right angles to each other in the mix. What I've taken out is the formation of the photon particle at the point of destination. That being, when the electromagnetic wave intersects an obstruction in it's path. If we could hitch a ride on the wave slowed down to a point where the effects of time dilation would be deminished allowing us to observe the state of the wave before it becomes a particle, we could view the electromagnetic wave singularly. No photon particle would, at this point, have formed yet............Infy

[IDMclean]

How they are interrelated is in the answer.

 

Conventionally, you can not. A photon can not drop below the speed of light, it is always traveling at, c. A photon can not be split. If you did indeed slow a photon down the obvious answer would be that you would no longer have a photon. Because a Photon is defined by it's velocity, permittivity, permeability.

 

When a photon is given more energy or energy is taken from it, it does not increase or decrease in velocity, it instead changes in frequency.

 

To adjust the velocity of a photon you must adjust it's permittivity and/or it's permeability, which changes it's state and makes it "no longer a photon" by definition.

[infamous]

 

To adjust the velocity of a photon you must adjust it's permittivity and/or it's permeability, which changes it's state and makes it "no longer a photon" by definition.

I do understand the point of this remark KAC, but remember, I was suggesting a hypothetical and not resting on common theory. The fact is simply this; If, and I stress the word 'if', you could slow down the wave before it became a particle we call the photon, the singularity of the 2 dimensional wave could be studied.............Infy

[GAHD]

Ironicly I picked up this new avatar because it follows a hunch I have on how a photon looks/funtions. consider the 'dark' parton as magnetic and the 'light' portion as electric.

 

Just an odd coincidence, really. I'll leave the rest of my hunch out of the matter because at that pont it really starts becoming a candidate for the strange claims forum. ;)