Need for a long range exploration space craft.

[Noah]

Hey everybody, this is just something I have been thinking about for a while. With the Voyager spacecraft being our most distant craft, and with their power supplies starting to run low, I think it is time for NASA to start thinking about a long range craft built for a mission to explore the heliopause, the Oort Cloud, and beyond. The two major problems that have to be addressed is power and propulsion. With a nuclear reactor, it should be able to last a long time. And for the propulsion, one idea might be an ion drive similar to the one on Deep Space 1. It was the longest running engine ever. Another idea that has been mention is Plasma Propulsion. The only drawback is that once it was within a certain distance of the Heliopause, it would no longer be usable, so another drive, probabiliy ion, would be needed.

 

Any other thoughts on this?

 

Noah

[Tormod]

Noah,

 

did you read the book "Project Orion" by George Dyson? It is about a huge project in the 1950s where US scientists tried to build a gigantic spaceship for manned exploration of the Solar System ("Saturn by 1970" was their slogan).

 

Their method of propulsion were tiny nuclear bombs which were ingeniously designed so that all the force of the explosion would be directed towards a pusher plate at the bottom of the spaceship, making it move. They figured they needed some 6000 bombs or so to get to Saturn.

 

It's an interesting book, you should read it.

 

Tormod

[UncleAl]

"The Starflight Handbook," Eugene Mallove, Gregory Matloff.

 

Unless you invent new physics, there are two fundamental physical limits to going anywhere interestiing in a useful length of time:

 

1) Energy. The most efficient source of energy (total output/shipping mass) we have is a fission reactor. Chemical prpoulsion is a bad joke. If you want high energy density you pay for it in radiation shielding mass. A fission reactor is no way near enough energy in total to go anywhere interesting in a useful interval. External energy like solar cells crap out by Mars' orbit - sunshine varies as 1/r^2.

 

2) Reaction mass. Momentum is conserved. If you want to go this-a-way you have to toss something out that-a-way. Note that p=mv and E=(mv^2)/2. For a given amount of energy you want to eject the most massive lump at the lowest velocity - which doesn't get you anywhere fast. All on-board propulsion is therefore crapola in the Big Picture. If you want to travel you must do it inefficiently vs. energy input. That is what the rulebook says, and nobody has a different rulebook.

 

The only practical external propulsion is bouncing off a planetary gravity well - which all deep space NASA probes have exploited to the max. Pretty much the best you can do is the Voyagers, whcih obviously isn't very good compared to the size of the problem. We are stuck in the mud good and hard.

 

This is why Uncle Al proposes a modest calculated variation of an existing series of experiments to see if the rulebook can be finessed, the last best hope. If you know some physics and can handle Acrobat *.pfd, the short form. Somebody should look.

 

--

Uncle Al

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/eotvos.htm

(Do something naughty to physics)

[Noah]

Thanks for the info Uncle Al. I will read that soon as possible.

 

Noah

[Data]

I have a theory on magnetic propulsion. I have heard theories that there is a magnetic "curtain" in space. Something like "subspace layers," from star trek. What if we could use this to our advantage. Find the polarity of space and REVERSE the crafts, whoooosh. Away it goes. IF these "layers, curtains" even exist. It is an interesting aspect, although it would be hard to figure out what direction these layers go, you would be at the mercy of the layer if it went in circles LOL.

[CD27]

noah,

 

i unfortunately do not know anything about mechanical engineering so i can not answer your question about long range exploration. but i do know someone who can, just, don't mention my name becausehe kinda doesn't like all that much anymore. his name is don mitchell. if you have yahoo messenger you can talk with him on instant message. his SN name is:

 

thought_worthy

 

i hope you two can get along fairly well. he is one of the smartest men i know, and is one of the people i know who works with the government, directly with the government.

[wepe]

This post was: DATA LOL

THATS HELLARIOUS! CRAZY STAR TREK DUDE, WHAT IF THE MAGNETIC FIELD/PLANE WAS A SPIRAL, AND U SPUN INTO AN INTINTISMAL POINT IN SPACE. YOU'D BE A DEAD ONE.

 

Should be: Data lol

Thats hellarious! Crazy Star Trek dude, what if the magnetic field/plane was a spiral, and u spun into an intintismal point in space. You'd be a dead one.

 

(so lose the caps lock) Edited by Tormod

[Noah]

Originally posted by: CD27

noah,

 

i unfortunately do not know anything about mechanical engineering so i can not answer your question about long range exploration. but i do know someone who can, just, don't mention my name becausehe kinda doesn't like all that much anymore. his name is don mitchell. if you have yahoo messenger you can talk with him on instant message. his SN name is:

 

thought_worthy

 

i hope you two can get along fairly well. he is one of the smartest men i know, and is one of the people i know who works with the government, directly with the government.

 

Sorry I just now saw this post, been out a while. But I may try to pop in on YM sometime and talk to him. Thanks.

 

Noah

[Stargazer]

The plasma propulsion concept is very interesting. A light probe could be sped up to high veolocities to reach the outer boundaries of our solar system quickly. However the problem is that they will have no means to slow down unless they carry plenty of fuel. Otherwise we could always send many probes to the Kuipier belt and the Oort cloud, in different directions.

[paultrr]

I also might suggest: http://www.transtatorindustries.org/JOATP.html for some current lines of research.

[Tormod]

Didn't you just post that link elsewhere?

 

Anyway, thank you for a lot if insightful posts. It's pretty quiet here today, what with Thanksgiving and the upgrade and everything - good to see that someone is hanging around. :eek:

[paultrr]

It fits the issue of theoretical ideas as far as propulsion. The current thrust out of NASA is research on atomic power though what they are looking into is more an atomic augmented ion drive than anything else. All part of Bush's proposed plan. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone out there.