A Twist of Logic

[Little Bang]

I want to postulate a hypothetical object. It occupies a very small finite volume of space but is unique in that it has no mass. What would happen to the object if we apply a force to it? According to F = MA if we solve for it’s acceleration it would = the force/ the mass and would be infinite. Doesn’t this hypothetical question have all the attributes of the photon? What do you think?

[Tim_Lou]

the question is, how can one apply force on it and what kinds of force?

 

gravity? electromagnetic? strong or weak?

 

if the object does not have charge, it will not be affected by any electromagnet field.

 

if the object does not have mass.... well it will still be affected by the distortion of space-time.

 

and actually, newtonian physics, F=m*a isnt quite correct, it is only for nomal everyday situations.

 

strong and weak interactions? sry, i dont know much about them.

[Mercedes Benzene]

I don't get it. If it doesn't have any mass, how can it be affected by force? How could it exist at all?

[infamous]

I want to postulate a hypothetical object. It occupies a very small finite volume of space but is unique in that it has no mass. What would happen to the object if we apply a force to it? According to F = MA if we solve for it’s acceleration it would = the force/ the mass and would be infinite. Doesn’t this hypothetical question have all the attributes of the photon? What do you think?

Wouldn't this explain why the photon experiences no time as it travels across the vast distances of space? Simply because it has infinite acceleration. From the human reference frame the velocity of light is 186,282 miles/sec but if we could hitch a ride on the wave, the velocity would be infinite because; At the same instant we leave the source of our creation, we also arrive at our final destination...........................Infy

[ronthepon]

Some thing that has no mass probably does not exist in a manner that the concept of force will hold.

[Little Bang]

Quiet right info.

 

mer and ron, did you notice the use of the word hypothetical?

[ronthepon]

Quiet right info.

 

mer and ron, did you notice the use of the word hypothetical?

Exactly! But photons are very fitting for your description so it gave me the push.

[Tarantism]

Quiet right info.

 

mer and ron, did you notice the use of the word hypothetical?

the question is: how do you apply that to non-hypothetical science? interesting thread...

[ronthepon]

the question is: how do you apply that to non-hypothetical science? interesting thread...

OK, there are two methods of working out the effect of a force on zero mass.

 

1- Newton's way:

 

Infinite velocity, right away! It instantly reaches the first barrier which manages to apply exactly the initial force, not a bit more or less.

 

We can never hope to observe it anyhow.

 

2- Einstein's way:

 

Speed = c, right away. It becomes what we may call radiation. Except it's not radiation.

[Tarantism]

so, basically, for all we simple mortal humans know, there could be an infinate number of Zero-Mass objects in the infinate cosmos, traveling with infinate velocity. we cannot detect them. neato.

[Farsight]

I've got one of these objects. Several actually. You want me to tell you what it is?

[ronthepon]

Bad habit to keep people guessing, other than in the riddles thread.

[Farsight]

I'll take that as a yes:

 

The crease in my pants

[ronthepon]

:hihi:

Oho! conceptual objects!

 

But if you bother to cut your crease out and weigh it...

[Farsight]

..you'll find it has no mass. The crease is not the cloth!

 

And anyway, you can't cut it out.

 

Here's another one: how heavy is a SHOUT?

[infamous]

..you'll find it has no mass. The crease is not the cloth!

 

And anyway, you can't cut it out.

 

Here's another one: how heavy is a SHOUT?

I'll make this statement only once; Little Bang has started a thread about the character of massless particles and the consequences of force applied to them. The last couple of posts have absolutely nothing to do with this topic so I'm instructing everyone involved in this thread to stay on topic. I'm certain the author of this thread is serious about the content being offered for consideration. Please respect his wishes and mine to stay on topic...............Infy

[ronthepon]

Since Little Bang may be truly interested, and since Infamous sounds like a mafia don, I'll post the rest of my thoughts on the topic.

 

The rest mass of an object is a marker of the energy present in the object. - A statement I have heard and believe in.

 

It won't be photon like, because I feel photons must have mass.

 

-To state why I feel photons have mass-

So is says that a single photon of wavelength 'w' must have a mass of

[math] \frac{h}{c w} [/math]

where h, and c are plank's constant and the speed of light, respectively. To get this, use the equations which postulate the mass-energy equivalence and energy of a photon.

 

Finding the mass of a typical red light photon of wavelength, we get it to be in the range of [math]10^{-36}Kg[/math] Definitely a finite value.

 

Indeed, this mass can be observed in the form of radiation pressure.

--

 

Now, if an object has no mass, then it can not have energy. IF it is neither mass, nor energy, then it is something else.

 

What else could it be?

other than free space?

 

Further, the existence of a zero mass object violates the heisenberg uncertainity principle, or makes a mess out of it's own possible mechanics.

 

The uncertainity in momentum will be zero.

 

So either it won't be existing, or the uncertainity in position will be infinite.