Lost Civilisations

[Panjandrum]

Hopefully Panjandrum just worded it poorly,although there is not a lot of wiggle room there...As far as I understand the Aztecs attained a high degree of development in engineering, architecture, art, mathematics, and astronomy.The amazing Chinampa(floating garden)was a unique development,and an ingenious way to fed the people. The chinampas were so effective at producing, that there were often food surpluses.

 

Most of these things were taken over from earlier meso american civilisations, particularly the Olmecs. Tho, I agree the chinampas were a good idea. Its surprising no-one else has ever used the same solution.

[Panjandrum]

The problem is we will never know will we?

Do they have to be useful to us to escape genocide and cultural oblivion?

 

Not at all. I merely asked whether there was anyting of use to us that they developed, or whether what little they did manage has been effectively absorbed into our culture anyway.

 

The Aztecs had amazing botanical gardens. Covering hundreds of acres. They crossed and bred thousands of plants-medicinal and otherwise useful. The reason we have over 2,000 varieties of Chillie is because of their breeding programme. Chillie and chocolate were much venerated.

"The Bandianus Manuscript" is an early Spanish book on their botany It was was hidden (All Spanish knowledge of the new World was a State Secret) and re-found in the Vatican library in 1930. I have a copy but it is too hard to work out the medicinal plants mentioned. I believe that Dover has recently issued a re-print.

 

All peoples arrive at such knowledge. Im sure the Aztecs would have been amased by european, chinese or indian herbalism, too.

 

Australian Aborigines had/have an affinity with the land that is unsurpassed.

Australian geography and environment have great and special challenges. (No tourist survives a few days in the Outback)

Europeans are now just realising this. Aborigines had it all worked out- they were able to survive on a few hours of work per day and spend a lot of their time developing a deep spirituality.

In fact we now know they created the Australian flora. They had a huge pharmacopoeia of botanical drugs and useful plants (One berry recently tested had 10,000 times the vitamin C content of oranges). A lot of this knowledge has been lost.

They used art to express their stories of the land. Some of the earliest art known exists in Australia

Weapons like spear throwers and the aerodynamics of the boomerang are unique.

 

Thats nice?

[Michaelangelica]

I read, that Early American cultures (pre-Spain), never invented the wheel

 

(While China invented the wheelbarrow in about 100AD)

 

Does anyone know if this is true?

 

Seems remarkable that they built the temples, and other buildings they did, without the benefit of the wheel.!

[Buffy]

I read, that Early American cultures (pre-Spain), never invented the wheel...

There's never been a wheel found, which would strongly indicate that this is true. It is likely however that they used the "log as a wheel" like the Egyptians did in moving large stones for their monuments, but a log is a log, and its hard to tell how its been used. Its also possible though that a lot of the movement of stones simply used sled/skids, with a *lot* of manpower, possibly greased with plant materials (which are plentiful in the rain forest). Its amazing, but not a requirement to have wheels to build such incredible monuments...Quite a testament to the sophistication of the cultures that could gather and organize the armies required to perform such feats.

 

Pyramid power,

Buffy

[Chacmool]

Could we perhaps debate this point in a separate thread so that we can get this thread back on topic?

[Michaelangelica]

Could we perhaps debate this point in a separate thread so that we can get this thread back on topic?

 

Yes please!!!

Everyone is different

Everyone dances to a different drummer

Let us keep personalities out of it.

 

Aboriginal Australians at 80,000 AD, any takers?

[Chacmool]

Australian Aborigines had/have an affinity with the land that is unsurpassed.

Australian geography and environment have great and special challenges. (No tourist survives a few days in the Outback)

Europeans are now just realising this. Aborigines had it all worked out- they were able to survive on a few hours of work per day and spend a lot of their time developing a deep spirituality.

In fact we now know they created the Australian flora. They had a huge pharmacopoeia of botanical drugs and useful plants (One berry recently tested had 10,000 times the vitamin C content of oranges). A lot of this knowledge has been lost.

They used art to express their stories of the land. Some of the earliest art known exists in Australia

Weapons like spear throwers and the aerodynamics of the boomerang are unique.

 

Aboriginal Australians at 80,000 AD, any takers?

I suppose we can regard them as a lost civilisation (for the purposes of this thread) in the sense that a lot of their fascination knowledge has been lost. And what a great loss it is for us all! How wonderful it would have been to have all their ancient wisdom about plants.

 

How much evidence is there for the aboriginal Australians dating back to 80 000 AD? Where would they fit into the rest of the developing human population of that time?

[Michaelangelica]

There is a bit of an argument about dates.

From my reading of history books aboriginal settlement should have come after the explosion of a mighty Volcano in Indonesia about 72,000 years ago. (I can't remember its name).This left tell-tale deposits in the soil, that helps date sites of migration from Asia. (perhaps only in N hemisphere?) However, I haven't seen any Aussie archaeologists mention this.

 

Genetics is pointing to a number/few? invasions over time.

 

Whatever the final outcome Mungo is the world's Oldest Burial site for homo sapiens anyway.

This article claimed "Humans in Australia as long as 78,000 years ago"

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s25983.htm

"Mungo Man - part of a civilisation that arrived in Australia nearly 70,000 years ago at least.

New tests on an ancient skeleton suggest the first humans may have arrived in Australia as long as 78,000 years ago - more than 10 000 years earlier than previously thought".

 

Although more recent research is pointing to a much earlier date

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s788032.htm

 

"For the first time, scientists have reached a broad agreement that Australia's oldest human remains - Mungo Man - is 40,000 years old, about 22,000 years younger than the previous estimate, according to new analyses."

 

While checking these dates I came across an off-beat report on Australian Aboriginal settlement of South America about 50,000 years ago! A bit amazing if it is true. The report cites a BBC TV programme

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s47066.htm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/430944.stm

"The programme, Ancient Voices, shows that the dimensions of prehistoric skulls found in Brazil match those of the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia. Other evidence suggests that these first Americans were later massacred by invaders from Asia.

 

Until now, native Americans were believed to have descended from Asian ancestors who arrived over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska and then migrated across the whole of north and south America. The land bridge was formed 11,000 years ago during the ice age, when sea level dropped.

 

How rock art suggests a violent end for the "Australian" Americans

However, the new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years"

I think the show is yet to be aired. It should cause a stir when it does screen!

 

 

This site is interesting on Aboriginal Rock Art. It is every where. Lots of local sites around me. 'Though people keep quiet about a lot of them because of the fear of vandalism.:-

"Aboriginal rock art reveals world that time forgot" at:-

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s894112.htm

[Probable Uncertainty]

i have not heard from this australian aborigine, what are they? is it like chinese?

 

for me best lost people is neanderthals, from them is nothing left anywhere really, just some bones and simple tools. even in blood, with DNA, is nothing left from them.

[Buffy]

i have not heard from this australian aborigine, what are they? is it like chinese?

Among the very earliest migrations from Africa to the Australian Continent. There are some interesting discussions if the Aborigines came solely from h. sapiens coming from Africa or whether there is any influence from earlier migrations of earlier homo or austraulopiticus species that have recently been discovered (similar to the arguments about contribution of h. neandertalis to h. sapiens.

for me best lost people is neanderthals, from them is nothing left anywhere really, just some bones and simple tools. even in blood, with DNA, is nothing left from them.

Actually h. neandertalis is among the most extensively studied of all of the homo species! They left extraordinary amounts of cultural evidence including use of clothing, hunting tools, elaborate burial rituals, evidence of heirarchical social units, etc. etc. etc.

 

But FedEx hasn't been invented yet, :naughty:

Buffy

[Probable Uncertainty]

Actually h. neandertalis is among the most extensively studied of all of the homo species! They left extraordinary amounts of cultural evidence including use of clothing, hunting tools, elaborate burial rituals, evidence of heirarchical social units, etc. etc. etc.

 

yes we have found this things near to my house here, whole family of neanderthal buried in floor of cave. but i think still they are very list people, is no people now who say, "we are from neanderthal". all culture and language they have is gone now, and no-one can find it again.

[Michaelangelica]

Among the very earliest migrations from Africa to the Australian Continent. There are some interesting discussions if the Aborigines came solely from h. sapiens coming from Africa or whether there is any influence from earlier migrations of earlier homo or austraulopiticus species that have recently been discovered (similar to the arguments about contribution of h. neandertalis to h. sapiens.Actually h. neandertalis is among the most extensively studied of all of the homo species! They left extraordinary amounts of cultural evidence including use of clothing, hunting tools, elaborate burial rituals, evidence of heirarchical social units, etc. etc. etc.

 

But FedEx hasn't been invented yet, :naughty:

Buffy

I didnt know they left that much. I know they found a 3.5 milion YO stone cutting tool Was that neandertahal or too early? I must bone up on it (pardon the pun)

Would the 80,000 YO burial site found near Israel (with modern medicinal herbs like yarrow scatterd around the body) have been neandertal or sapiens?

 

I read somewhere that they have got some bits of Neanderthal DNA.

Little strands made by some multiplication tecnique. As would be expected we had/have very similar DNA

[Buffy]

I didnt know they left that much. I know they found a 3.5 milion YO stone cutting tool Was that neandertahal or too early? I must bone up on it (pardon the pun)

Yep. "Thousands of sites" in Europe according to this really good article in American Scientist.Sapiens and Neandertals are well known to have coexisted in Europe for many thousand years, and there are enough artifacts that experts can tell the difference between sites inhabited by different species and there's much speculation based on how some of these characterstics merged and modified over time. Why? How? Not certain, but there was obviously a lot of interaction. 3.5MYA gets into Australopiticines, so predates any Homo species which showed up about 2MYA...

I read somewhere that they have got some bits of Neanderthal DNA. Little strands made by some multiplication tecnique. As would be expected we had/have very similar DNA

Yep, and although you couldn't go all Jurassic Park with it there's enough to start making guesses about whether there are any modern humans who inherited any Neandertal traits (no evidence synthesized yet though).

 

Loana, :naughty:

Buffy

[Michaelangelica]

Thanks buffy sounds like a facinating book

I guess what we want to know is is the fictional book "Clan of the Cave Bear" true? (The book's major theme is a mating between sapiens and neanderthal.)

[Buffy]

I guess what we want to know is is the fictional book "Clan of the Cave Bear" true? (The book's major theme is a mating between sapiens and neanderthal.)

I think Jean Auel is at least that old, so she ought to know. :naughty:

 

We don't know yet, but experiments are going on as we post...maybe soon!

 

I like the tall cute one with the club,

Buffy

[Turtle]

Australian Aborigines had/have an affinity with the land that is unsurpassed.

...

Weapons like spear throwers and the aerodynamics of the boomerang are unique.

Michael

 

The bolded phrase is simply not true. The atlatl, the boomerang, & the bullroarer are found in cultures around the world. A good reference in regard to this is found in Micky Hart's book Drumming On The Edge of Magic.

My favorite lost civilisation is the Anasazi. The elaborate water system & the advanced astronomy combined with the Native Americans refereing to them as "the Ancient Ones" makes for a great ongoing search for what is still lost.

 

PS A bit off topic, but does anyone know if the Austrailian aborigines have the spinning disk on a string?

[InfiniteNow]

PS A bit off topic, but does anyone know if the Austrailian aborigines have the spinning disk on a string?

Excuse me Turtle, but it's called Khua. :)

 

 

Cheers. :cup: