Lost Civilisations

[Panjandrum]

Oh, & because I have made & operated the largest one in the history of Gaia.

 

Oh? How large was it?

 

Im not sure that Aboriginies were shamanic, per se. Shamanism to me implies a degree of seperation between normal people and those who work magic, which does not seem to be the case in traditional Aborigine culture. They seem more akin to the primalism of some west african tribes, where working magic is a communal, tribal activity.

 

Do you believe that the presence of similar motifs and apparatus across wide geographic areas which practiced shamanic traditions is indicative of a common origin of shamanism, a result of cultural diffusion, convergence, or simple co-incidence?

[C1ay]

A boomerang is something that boomerangs, ie, returns to you when its thrown. What kind of retard talks about 'non-returning boomerangs'? Theres alreay a word for them in english. Theyre called sticks.

The Aborigines use a non-returning boomerang, called a kylie or killer stick, as a hunting tool, and are frequently credited with inventing the returning boomerang which evolved from it. The kylie is a very effective hunting tool where as the returning boomerang is not since it is hard to aim. Perhaps you might look into such things yourself before referring to someone else's more informed knowledge as retarded....

[Turtle]

Oh? How large was it?

Here is where I have to reprimand.:eplane: This Forum is HYPOGRAPHY, a contraction of Hyper-link & Biography. I do not post Hyper-links frivolously & one of the links I posted is a video in the Hypography Science Gallery of Racoon & I operating said Khua/Diable/Spinning Disk. Here it is again, and my Profile Photo has the Vesica Piscis Discis of the Largest Kind as well.

http://hypography.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=685&c=3&userid=796

I am considering your other questions.:eek2:

[Panjandrum]

A boomerang that does not return is not a boomerang. Its a stick. You say yourself, they refer to it as a killer stick. The use of sticks in this way has a long and noble history, the ancient egyptians used simmilar curved stick to hunt wildfowl, but Ive never heard any claim they were boomerangs. Just because the killer stick ultimately lead to the boomerang, its simply anachronistic to apply the latter term to it. It is like insisting on calling a Gramaphone a 'static-iPod'.

[Panjandrum]

Here is where I have to reprimand.:eplane: This Forum is HYPOGRAPHY, a contraction of Hyper-link & Biography. I do not post Hyper-links frivolously & one of the links I posted is a video in the Hypography Science Gallery of Racoon & I operating said Khua/Diable/Spinning Disk. Here it is again, and my Profile Photo has the Vesica Piscis Discis of the Largest Kind as well.

 

Hmm, thats not the image I had in mind at all. I was thinking of a disc on a string, with both ends drawn taut and the disc in the middle, like this: ---o---. I can see why the Khua would be used in shamanism, Im sure you could trip pretty well staring at that thing after youd necked half a magic cactus.

[C1ay]

A boomerang that does not return is not a boomerang. Its a stick. You say yourself, they refer to it as a killer stick. The use of sticks in this way has a long and noble history, the ancient egyptians used simmilar curved stick to hunt wildfowl, but Ive never heard any claim they were boomerangs. Just because the killer stick ultimately lead to the boomerang, its simply anachronistic to apply the latter term to it. It is like insisting on calling a Gramaphone a 'static-iPod'.

You should log onto WikiPedia then and contest the entry there....

A boomerang is an Australian Aboriginal wooden implement used for various purposes. It comes in many shapes and sizes depending on its geographic/tribal origins and intended function. The most recognisable type is the returning boomerang which, when thrown correctly, travels in a curved path and returns to its point of origin. Other types of boomerang are of the non-returning sort, and indeed, some of not thrown at all but are used in hand-to-hand combat by Aboriginal people. Boomerangs can be variously used as hunting weapons, percussive musical instruments, battle clubs, fire-starters, decoys for hunting waterfowl, and as recreational playthings. The smallest boomerang may be less than 10 cm from tip-to-tip, and the largest over 2 metres in length. Tribal boomerangs may be incised and/or painted with designs meaningful to its maker. Most boomerangs seen today are of the tourist or competition sort, and are almost invariably of the returning type.

 

More at Boomerang....

You should also contact HowStuffWorks to lend your superior knowledge there as well since they claim:

When we talk about boomerangs, we usually mean the curved devices that return to you when you throw them, but there are actually two different kinds of boomerangs. The kind we're all familiar with, returning boomerangs, are specially crafted, lightweight pieces of wood, plastic or other material. Traditionally, these are basically two wings connected together in one banana-shaped unit, but you can find a number of different boomerang designs available these days, some with three or more wings...

 

Returning boomerangs evolved out of non-returning boomerangs. These are also curved pieces of wood, but they are usually heavier and longer, typically 3 feet (1 meter) or more across. Non-returning boomerangs do not have the light weight and special wing design that causes returning boomerangs to travel back to the thrower, but their curved shape does cause them to fly easily through the air. Non-returning boomerangs are effective hunting weapons because they are easy to aim and they travel a good distance at a high rate of speed. There is also such a thing as a battle boomerang, which is basically a non-returning boomerang used in hand-to-hand combat.

 

More at Boomerangs....

You should even invest some time contacting places like this Australia Shop to correct them:

A Boomerang is a wooden device that is thrown, primarily for the purposes of hunting (see picture above). It is a popular misconception that all boomerangs, when thrown, return to you. However the original boomerangs used by Aboriginies in Australia were not the returning kind. The original Boomerangs ranged from 3 to 6 feet long, weighed between 2 and 4 pounds, and flew straight, killing any prey in their paths! The oldest Boomerangs discovered in Australia are from a period between 8000 and 10000 years ago....

Maybe you should point out your superior knowledge and explain to them that those 8000 to 10000 year old boomerangs are not really boomerangs because you said so....

[Panjandrum]

I would indeed contest all those people. To use the term boomerang to mean any stick-like weapon is to rob it of any special meaning at all. You may as well call everything a boomerang and be done with it.

[C1ay]

I would indeed contest all those people.

I would at least make sure that I could prove that I was right and they are wrong before doing that myself. You on the other hand need only declare that you are right whether or not you are. Why would you even consider any concept of proof at a science forum of all places?

[Turtle]

Hmm, thats not the image I had in mind at all. I was thinking of a disc on a string, with both ends drawn taut and the disc in the middle, like this: ---o---. I can see why the Khua would be used in shamanism, Im sure you could trip pretty well staring at that thing after youd necked half a magic cactus.

 

It is exactly as you describe; I don't understand your mis-understanding. Again, did you read the thread I linked to here, "Spinning Button On A String"? The thread covers the topic thouroughly.

http://hypography.com/forums/physics...on-string.html

No "cactus necking" is required & it is not the optical effects but the auditory effects that have the power to entrance.

Additionally to amplify C1ay's posts, I offer this morsel:

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 599,000 for rabbit stick. (0.49 seconds)

[CraigD]

A boomerang is something that boomerangs, ie, returns to you when its thrown. What kind of retard talks about 'non-returning boomerangs'? Theres alreay a word for them in english. Theyre called sticks.

The Aborigines use a non-returning boomerang, called a kylie or killer stick, as a hunting tool, and are frequently credited with inventing the returning boomerang which evolved from it. The kylie is a very effective hunting tool where as the returning boomerang is not since it is hard to aim.

My inexpert impression is that “killer sticks”, boomerangs, chakrams, some varieties of medieval Asian and European vaned darts, and the modern Frisbee, are all members of a family of “aerodynamic thrown projectiles” that travel to their target in more flat trajectory than a non-airfoil-shaped object, (stones, clubs, spears, etc.) thrown at the same speed can. Though some of these objects were not purely hand thrown (the historic Chakram was meant to be slung with a stick contacting its inner, blunt edge, while several kinds of vaned darts were shot from balista-type devices), they share the flattened trajectory trait, allowing them to travel further then a non-airfoil shaped object of the same size and mass, and allowing them to strike targets at a greater range of distances.

 

A stick or throwing club isn’t in this family, and doesn’t enjoy this advantage.

 

The only members of the “aerodynamic thrown projectiles” family of which I’m aware that have the ability to return to the thrower are boomerangs and Frisbees. They do so throught very different means: A Frisbee can be thrown so that it rises, stops, then descends in the opposite direct from which it came, while a boomerang flys in a near circle, often at a nearly constant height. According to the wikipedia article “Boomerang”, “There is little to no evidence that returning boomerangs were ever used as hunting tools” (or, presumably, in warfare) – that is, it has always been a toy. Unless once considers the Chakram to be an early form of Frisbee, the Frisbee also has never be used as a weapon.

[Michaelangelica]

 

I have searched the web extensively on the Bullroarers & found that about half the information given is flat wrong.:)

Does anyone know if the Aboriginie have the Khua/Diable (spinning-disk-on-a-string)?:lol:

What would Khua be called in Australia? (Apart from the wit with yo-yo!)

Does this help on bullrorarers/? I don't know if they were unique to Aust.Aboriginies. I think the boomerang was.

http://www.univenter.com/art-artifacts_aboriginal-artifacts.html

Bullroarers Bullroarers (souv048)

 

Aboriginal Bullroarers are used to frighten off the enemy. The end of the 4 ft long cord is held in the hand and the shaped wooden bullroarer revolves around and above the head in a circular motion causing the bullroarer to make an eerie roaring sound, hence the description 'Bullroarer'.

 

or better

http://www.wirrimbah.com.au/html/bull_roarers.html

BULL ROARER

 

Consists of a thin flat piece of wood suspended from a string at one end. It is whirled round and round at arms length, turning on it's axis and making a whirring sound which grows louder the faster it is swung. It meant the voice of a great ancestral spirit and so holy that some women could never see it. The Bull Roarer was a sacred object which must be hidden from sight and used only during initiation rites and other important ceremonies.

[Michaelangelica]

wikipedia article “Boomerang”, “There is little to no evidence that returning boomerangs were ever used as hunting tools” (or, presumably, in warfare) – that is, it has always been a toy. Unless once considers the Chakram to be an early form of Frisbee, the Frisbee also has never be used as a weapon.

 

I hate to say my favourite souce,wikipedia, is wrong but it is here. They were definately used as hunting tools. Never as toys. They have only been used as toys since the advent of American Tourists.:lol:

Again same (Aboriginal )web site

THE BOOMERANG

 

The Boomerang is cut from the elbow of the tree which gives the wood it's strength.

The Boomerang is used for hunting, but it's primary purpose is for throwing into a flock of birds

You have to see an Australian "Flock" (000sands)of birds to see how deadly they would be

[CraigD]

According to the wikipedia article “Boomerang”, “There is little to no evidence that returning boomerangs were ever used as hunting tools” (or, presumably, in warfare) – that is, it has always been a toy. Unless once considers the Chakram to be an early form of Frisbee, the Frisbee also has never be used as a weapon.

I hate to say my favourite souce,wikipedia, is wrong but it is here. They were definately used as hunting tools. Never as toys. They have only been used as toys since the advent of American Tourists.:lol:

…

You have to see an Australian "Flock" (000sands)of birds to see how deadly they would be

I can easily imagine how a boomerang resembling a modern sport boomerang (perhaps a bit heavier), launched into a dense flock of birds, could reliably bring down one or more of them. I’m a bit chagrinned I didn’t think of this on my own – but, having grown up among the sparse “upland game” birds of America’s Appalachians, where bringing down a bird requires precise aiming of shotgun or fowling net (the latter’s much harder to master than the former!), the idea of aiming a weapon at a whole flock is simply foreign to my experience!

 

Is anyone aware of anyone currently hunting with this technique?

 

I remain convinced that the Frisbee is a pure, non-killing toy/sport equipment :)

[Turtle]

What would Khua be called in Australia? (Apart from the wit with yo-yo!)

Does this help on bullrorarers/? I don't know if they were unique to Aust.Aboriginies. I think the boomerang was.

http://www.univenter.com/art-artifacts_aboriginal-artifacts.html

Bullroarers Bullroarers (souv048)

 

Aboriginal Bullroarers are used to frighten off the enemy. The end of the 4 ft long cord is held in the hand and the shaped wooden bullroarer revolves around and above the head in a circular motion causing the bullroarer to make an eerie roaring sound, hence the description 'Bullroarer'.

 

or better

http://www.wirrimbah.com.au/html/bull_roarers.html

BULL ROARER

 

Consists of a thin flat piece of wood suspended from a string at one end. It is whirled round and round at arms length, turning on it's axis and making a whirring sound which grows louder the faster it is swung. It meant the voice of a great ancestral spirit and so holy that some women could never see it. The Bull Roarer was a sacred object which must be hidden from sight and used only during initiation rites and other important ceremonies.

 

Some of this is mis-information, e.g. the description of the mechanics. The loudness is not nearly dependant on the speed of swinging as it is on the weight & stiffness of string, the shape of the bullroarer, & the length of string. As I have said, bullroarers & boomerangs are not unique to Australia. See the book Planet Drum: A Celebration of Percussion and Rhythm by Mickey Hart, Fredric Lieberman, D. A. Sonneborn for a list of several dozen cultures with the bullroarer and what they called it. The Amazon add has some exerps:

Amazon.com: Planet Drum: A Celebration of Percussion and Rhythm: Books: Mickey Hart,Fredric Lieberman,D. A. Sonneborn http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1888358203/qid=1151991024/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/104-0054640-1476749?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

On the American rabbit sticks, some sources refer to them boomeranging.

 

I don't know what the Khua is called by Aboriginie or if they even have it; perhaps since you are down-under you can root out some info on it?

Lost, But Not Forgetting,

Turtler

 

Edit ps Here's a link to a Brazillian example of the bullroarer:http://www.tribalmania.com/AMAZONBULLROARER.htm

And from the Naskapi people of Newfoundland

http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/stones/instru/I15636.htm

And the Ojibwa:

http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/stones/instru/I15571.htm

[Turtle]

The boomerang search keeps coming back with more data.:lol:

 

http://www.grazian-archive.com/History/P01_C03_.htm

A considerable proportion of the Southwestern Indians lived in pueblo villages, a distinctive form of settlement some examples of which persist today...

They raised turkeys, and otherwise supplemented vegetable diets by hunting buffalo, deer, antelope and rabbits, employing sometimes a type of boomerang like that of the ten-thousand-mile-distant Australians.

This legend:

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheWarriorSuitorofMoki-Zuni.html

..."Very well," said the old bird; "I will help you." And he made a boomerang for the youth which had the power to fly around bushes and down into gullies; and if well thrown, of course, it could not be dodged by any rabbit, however swift of foot or sly in hiding. Having finished this boomerang, he told the youth to take it and use it freely in hunting. The youth thanked him, and returning to his town passed a peaceful night....

 

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 83,000 for American Indian boomerang.

[Turtle]

This article explicitly considers throwing sticks that don't return "boomerangs".:lol:

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/res-sheets/lss.html

...The 240 foot deep, hourglass-shaped spring is fed from an underground source that has no dissolved oxygen in the water. Consequently, bacteria cannot grow and decompose wood and other organic materials, offering unique artifact preservation. Among the literally hundreds of items unearthed, Rosenstiel School researchers have found a sharpened wooden stake that dated back over 12,000 years ago—the second oldest artifact ever uncovered in the southeast United States. The most important artifact recovered so far is a well-preserved portion of a nonreturning oak boomerang. It is similar to those found in northern Australia and is not like those used by American Indian groups. The artifact may be the oldest of this type of boomerang known in the world. It is the first found in the Western Hemisphere. ...

 

More mention of bommerang outside Austrailia:

http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_IV/Chapter2.html

... But their [Aboriginie] ingenuity is also undoubted in so far as they have cared to exercise it. Probably the supreme example of this is the boomerang. It is also found in other parts of the world, and even in prehistoric sites. (33)

 

http://www.spottedeagle.com/jokes.htm

Native American joke:

What do you call a boomerang that doesn't work?

A stick.

[Qfwfq]

Panjandrum, your argument:

A boomerang is something that boomerangs, ie, returns to you when its thrown.

was essentially supposing the noun to be due to the verb, but this is definitely putting the cart before the horse.

 

You were by no means justified in calling anyone a retard. In fact, by a false argument of definitions, you only succeeded in displaying ignorance.