Indeterminism and Freewill

[pgrmdave]

As I have demonstrated before, I believe that there is no free will because I believe that we live in a deterministic universe. However, it appears with modern science that we might live in a random universe, in which determinism does not hold true. My question to you is, does that actually help free will? If the universe is random, then wouldn't your thoughts and actions also be governed by this randomness?

[DarkColoredLight]

If the universe is determinded to be the one and possible only random, then how did you get to the point of "free will?"

 

We have the illution of free will everyday, but really it's just someone else's free will, and speech, put in a laugnage we speek. But, rarely do we actually have free will. When we do have free will, it's because we added more than one thought as one. Which might seem random on the outside, but was thought of on the inside. Of our mind that is. But, it must be determined by a subconscious self inside whether is going to do one of three options. Three options being: for, with, or against.

 

For the people, With the people, or Against the people.

For a person, With a person, or Against a person.

For yourself, With youself, or Against yourself.

Etc etc.

 

Since we can't prove the universe is random we'll have to assume, and determine to the best of our ablities what IT is.

 

My thoughts.

[pgrmdave]

DarkColoredLight, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

[Zythryn]

I disagree with the assumption that if the universe is deterministic beings with consciousness are, and if it is random, the same beings are.

 

I believe I do have free will. If I am out exploring a park and come to a fork in the path, I can choose to go right or left.

 

While many choices we make are influenced by our past experiences, not all are. And while we feel that influence, we can make a conscious decision to go against that influence.

[ughaibu]

Determinism operates at a probability of 1, randomness operates at a probability of 0, between 1 and 0 there is an infinite number of degrees of deterministic probability. Indeterminism does not equate to randomness.

[DarkColoredLight]

DarkColoredLight, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

 

We say what we hear. Monkey see, monkey say, monkey do.

[Freddy]

Determinism; sociological, psychological, and genetic, can be examined in the study of sociology, psychology, and human biology. I would sugest The Practice Of Social Research by Earl Babie as a good place to begin. Free will is an illusion.

[pgrmdave]

Determinism is not sociological, psychological, or genetic - it is only at the physics level.

 

Does anybody have an answer to how modern physics supports free will?

[Erasmus00]

Does anybody have an answer to how modern physics supports free will?

 

First, no one knows for sure wether or not free-will exists. Physicists just as divided as this board. Some, like Roger Penrose, believe that quantum effects are operating at the level of the brain. They believe that a theory of conciousness will involve quantum mechanics. Others find the idea that quantum effects hold at the level of the brain quite absurd.

-Will

[pgrmdave]

Yes, but even assuming that quantum effects hold at that level, free will would indicate that there was something intrinsic within us which influenced the brain apart from the brain itself. Free will rests upon the idea that the mind and the brain are seperate and that the former controls, to some degree, the latter. If, however, they are not seperate, or the latter controls the former, then whether or not the physical world is deterministic or not makes no difference. There is no free will because there is no control.

[ughaibu]

Could an experiment, to demonstrate free will, be constructed by using a random number generator to select from an extensive list of verbs and the subject performing the action indicated by the verb selected? This would require the subject to choose to perform an action that was part of an undefined set.

[Kriminal99]

Determinism or not, I still don't even understand what people think free will means.

 

See, to use a simplified example, lets say you are at work and you are getting hungry but you have to finish a project. Lets say you are starving and decide to go grab somethign to eat. You chose to go get something to eat right? Why did you choose that? Because you were hungry. And why were you hungry? Did you choose to be hungry (the actual feeling)? No. It is easier to see with a simple feeling like hunger, but it is no different with any other feeling. You complete a project because you are afraid of messing up, or because you look forward to people appreciating your work. All of these things drive your behavior, and you have control over none of them.

 

Also people's behavior is always predictable. We've all seen that movie where the person finds out they have cancer and are going to die and go wild doing crazy things. But when was the last time someone worked at a bank for 4 years, then one day instead of going to work just drives to mexico and starts a new life?

 

So even without looking at a specific person's experience we can see that human behavior is constrained within certain boundaries. And then the more we look at a specific person the more we find reasons that seem to dictate their behavior. And when it gets to a point where we can look no more closely at a person's experiences because it becomes to complicated we are to assume that the person has free will or acts randomly either one? I wouldn't.

 

While I can't prove that it isn't a free will choice between two things where we can see both might be possibilities based on a person's past experience, (since if it isn't it would still be too complicated to follow all the interactions that would lead to the observed behavior) I think it is most likely not and look for a human desire to believe they are in control of their own actions to explain why people often believe in free will.

[ughaibu]

Even if there are only two possibilities, if choice can be exercised, there is free will.

[Zythryn]

Free will rests upon the idea that the mind and the brain are seperate and that the former controls, to some degree, the latter.

 

I strongly, but respectfully, disagree.

I believe the mind and brain are the same.

Two thoughts occur to me, turn left or turn right. I am free to choose either. Thus, free will.

 

The thoughts occur in the brain, and the brain is used to come to a conclusion.

 

However, either stance (there is free will or there is not) really is not provable.

 

It seems to me that the proof of no free will would be to be able to predict with 100% accuracy the behavior of an individual in any situation. To do so though, you would need so much information about their past, their genetics, their mood, and who knows what else, I don't believe it would be feasible.

 

I am open to ideas though. Any thoughts on a test that could support or refute the existance of free will or the lack of free will?

[Freddy]

Determinism is not sociological, psychological, or genetic - it is only at the physics level.

 

Does anybody have an answer to how modern physics supports free will?

 

Determinism is a philosophical doctrine that has been around long before the theory of quantum mechanics. Look it up!

[InfiniteNow]

Determinism or not, I still don't even understand what people think free will means.

That was a movie... with like a whale or something... right? :naughty:

[pgrmdave]

Even if there are only two possibilities, if choice can be exercised, there is free will.

 

But this is simply not true - at any point you cannot make two choices, you can only make one. You can then change your mind and make a different choice, but that's a different decision, seperate from the first one. The illusion of free will is strong, but unprovable.

 

Determinism is a philosophical doctrine that has been around long before the theory of quantum mechanics. Look it up!

 

I know what determinism is, the reason I bring up modern physics is because it seems to refute determinism.

 

Could an experiment, to demonstrate free will, be constructed by using a random number generator to select from an extensive list of verbs and the subject performing the action indicated by the verb selected? This would require the subject to choose to perform an action that was part of an undefined set.

No, because determinism is not at a high level, it's at the atomic, the sub-atomic, and lower. Let's compare weather to human choice. If determinism only held at the social, functioning level, we could tell that it was going to rain tomorrow. Since determinism holds at a low level, we can tell where each raindrop is going to hit, when it's going to hit, and how it's going to splash. Everything, even the firing of neurons in your brain which correspond to thought, is the direct result of all events before it, and is in fact the only possible result of the events before it.