Indeterminism and Freewill

[ughaibu]

Pgrmdave:

"if choice can be exercised", notice the use of "if", illusion of choice is not choice. The claim that such choice is an illusion has no more going for it than the claim that it's not.

Also, you seem to have overlooked the function of the random number generator in circumventing the subject's internal deterministic line.

[pgrmdave]

If there was a random number generator, there would be no determinism. No "random number generator" is actually random, especially if you meant a computer controlled generator.

[ughaibu]

As the experiment is suggested to demonstrate free will, if assumes an indeterministic system.

[pgrmdave]

Even then it wouldn't prove free will - people would be given input, and they would provide output. There's no way to know whether or not it was determined based on the input, randomly generated through quantum effects, or a genuine controlling of physical laws through free will.

[ughaibu]

Yes, but the input given would be seperate from the subject's individual history, it would be outside the system's deterministic effects.

[pgrmdave]

What system? It would still not be known whether or not there was free will, it would merely show that people can react to random input, just like computers could, or a rock, or anything else.

[ughaibu]

The deterministic system, all components of reality existing in the state of the universe, that which determines the subject's action (illusory choice), if something is introduced, by random means, it is not a deterministic cause, as it is outside the system and determinism requires absolute compliance from all elements of a limited system. Any action involving choice will likewise be outside the system, a non-deterministic action, otherwise the subject would necessarily continue with the action that had been determined by the system.

Alternatively, have you any proposal for an experiment which would demonstrate determinism in the lack of free will?

[pgrmdave]

I don't believe that there could be any experiment which could conclusively prove or disprove determinism, at least, I've never been able to find one.

[Freddy]

I don't believe that there could be any experiment which could conclusively prove or disprove determinism, at least, I've never been able to find one.

 

Again, I suggest you read,The Practice Of Social Research, by Earl Babbie or any other social research text. Each will explain the deterministic model of human behavior.

[someguy]

While I would agree that certain determined actions help us decide what we wish to decide, like hunger. This does not make the entire decision a determined one. Free will exists outside of these determined things. Free will is the choice made when two of these determined things disagree. Take Mazlow's heirarchy, if our bellies are full then we have no reason to continue eating yet we can decide to do so or not do so. It would make sense that if everything was determined people would not be overweight as it is unhealthy and would not be the choice of lets say our body.

The very idea that someone can do something detrimental to themselves is proof of free will. Determinism would not allow for you to end your own life yet people do this all the time.

If mind and brain are the same (I believe this is the case) then this says nothing about free will. Just because the brain needs something, like oxygen, doesn't mean that the person can't stop oxygen from going to the brain. Furthermore, the brain has many different parts that act in contrary ways. What makes the overiding decision when there is conflict? Free will.

Consciousness is further proof of free will. Why would it even be there if everything was determined? Why would the illusion of free will be necessary?

 

There are an infinte number of choices for any given event. If you come to a fork in the road you can go left or right or back where you came from, or straight on through the field or you can lay down and die. Your history and your gut and brain may influence your decision in some way but ultimately you decide and that is free will.