Will a Real Man wear Lipstick?

[coberst]

Will a Real Man wear Lipstick?

 

Will a man (not to include girlie-men) ever wear lipstick? Absolutely not, no self-respecting male ego would permit lipstick. It will, however, allow lip balm.

 

How is it possible to fool the ego?

 

Can you fool the ego into passivity? It appears that it is done all of the time. Madison Avenue knows how to manipulate the human ego. The Matador can constantly manipulate the great bull.

 

CT is my favorite hobby horse. I have been riding through the forums for three years shouting the greatness of CT. In these three years I have many wounds to show for my efforts. I have learned that everyone is a critical thinker. No adult ego will allow its brain to be classified as uncritical.

 

From these war wounds I have learned that everyone is a critical thinker, therefore we must delineate the types of critical thinking if we are to discuss the matter.

 

I use the following classification of critical thinkers:

1. Reagan style critical thinking—Trust but Verify

2. Stout critical thinking—Reagan style plus Logic 101

3. CT (Critical Thinking)—Stout critical thinking plus critical self-consciousness.

 

Critical self-consciousness is what our schools and colleges have added to the mix. The critical self-conscious aspect of CT is taught in the lower grades because the closer one comes to adulthood the greater the influence of the ego and no adult ego will allow its brain to be called uncritical.

 

CT Strategies for K-12 (Kindergarten thru high school)

 

A. Affective Strategies

 

S-1 thinking independently

S-2 developing insight into egocentricity or sociocentricity

S-3 exercising fairmindedness

S-4 exploring thoughts underlying feelings and feelings underlying thoughts

S-5 developing intellectual humility and suspending judgment

S-6 developing intellectual courage

S-7 developing intellectual good faith or integrity

S-8 developing intellectual perseverance

S-9 developing confidence in reason

B. Cognitive Strategies - Macro-Abilities

 

S-10 refining generalizations and avoiding oversimplifications

S-11 comparing analogous situations: transferring insights to new contexts

S-12 developing one's perspective: creating or exploring beliefs, arguments, or theories

S-13 clarifying issues, conclusions, or beliefs

S-14 clarifying and analyzing the meanings of words or phrases

S-15 developing criteria for evaluation: clarifying values and standards

S-16 evaluating the credibility of sources of information

S-17 questioning deeply: raising and pursuing root or significant questions

S-18 analyzing or evaluating arguments, interpretations, beliefs, or theories

S-19 generating or assessing solutions

S-20 analyzing or evaluating actions or policies

S-21 reading critically: clarifying or critiquing texts

S-22 listening critically: the art of silent dialogue

S-23 making interdisciplinary connections

S-24 practicing Socratic discussion: clarifying and questioning beliefs, theories, or perspectives

S-25 reasoning dialogically: comparing perspectives, interpretations, or theories

S-26 reasoning dialectically: evaluating perspectives, interpretations, or theories

C. Cognitive Strategies - Micro-Skills

 

S-27 comparing and contrasting ideals with actual practice

S-28 thinking precisely about thinking: using critical vocabulary

S-29 noting significant similarities and differences

S-30 examining or evaluating assumptions

S-31 distinguishing relevant from irrelevant facts

S-32 making plausible inferences, predictions, or interpretations

S-33 giving reasons and evaluating evidence and alleged facts

S-34 recognizing contradictions

S-35 exploring implications and consequences

 

This list is found in the following handbooks: Critical Thinking Handbook: k-3, Critical Thinking Handbook: 4-6, Critical Thinking Handbook: 6-9, Critical Thinking Handbook: High School.

[Buffy]

Whoa. I think you skipped a step in that proof Mr. C.

 

I don't understand what it is with some guys. I think fear of homosexuality pervades some of the strangest fears that men seem to have. If you guys wonder why its so easy for us to manipulate you, its because of all those fears. A good friend of mine from high school and college carried a "man bag" long before the name ever came around, and still does. He's not at all gay (as his long stream of gorgeous girlfriends can attest), in fact, he himself has this funny aversion toward them, but he laughs when people say they think he is. He's never worn lipstick that I know of, but he did let me highlight his hair once.

 

Now I guess CT could be applied to this. He knows he's not gay, so the fact that some of his personal traits and expressions are interpreted that way doesn't bother him. This sounds like extremely sound logic to me. What is it with these totally macho guys who won't hold my purse for 30 seconds when we're out shopping? Where's the CT in that?

 

I'll try not to get in the way here. Continue Mr. C....

 

Mystified in Guyville,

Buffy

[DarkColoredLight]

Think like a woman, act like a man, ask questions like a child.

 

Yes I do.

 

I think that's my equivalent to CT.

 

If a real man know's his lips are dry, he will apply the appropriate application to solve said dryness. Regardless of who's around to see. As for lipstick, I'm assuming you mean colored lipstick, which would leave you voneralbe to be caught red ... lipped. What man wants that situation to to be stuck in? Sure, you might laugh about it the first 99 times, but on that 100th time you could be liable to change. That, I assume, is why you don't see many emo, goth, gangster, metalhead, or pop tart /business persons.

[Probable Uncertainty]

it is not normal really. if a man wants to **** the *** of another man, they should do it in private place, same as with man ****ing with woman. man who wears lipstick to me is man who wants to be woman. he should go to doctor, have penis cut off and wear dress and be done with it.

[Buffy]

Why? cuz' straight guys don't want to be gay guys and are repulsed...

I guess that's fine, but you're never gonna do it if you're not gay, so what's the problem with holding a purse? Especially when you're standing right next to a cute girl that it obviously belongs to? Most of the guys I've dated for any length of time actually *like* to hold my purse for exactly this reason--I guess its like lifting their leg and saying "she's mine!", but none have ever admitted it--yet it seems like *most* guys are deathly afraid of it.

 

Back on topic, the point is that if you really practice CT, you won't let your "[homosexual acts] are gross" paranoia keep you from doing what you want to or should do. If you're 500 yards from the top of Mt Everest and your lips are falling apart, are you seriously going to tell me that because you have no Chapstick, you're going to turn around and go back rather than borrow your girlfriend's Rhum Riche? Are you serious?

Forget what you heard

I try Rac! :naughty:

 

Why don't you just stop and ask for directions,

Buffy

[Boerseun]

I've kissed a couple 'o girls who had lipstick on at the time, and I can quite honestly tell you I can't understand why women would want to wear lipstick in the first place. I have read once, however, that the purpose of lipstick was to redden the lips in such a way as to draw attention to them, which, of course, is a reference to... you guessed it. It refers to women bits.

 

Whether it's true or not is anybody's guess. But if there is any truth to it, it kinda makes you wonder what the purpose would be for a straight man to wear it. A straight man would probably have to walk around with something bulky in the pocket of his very tight jeans to achieve the same gender-based reference that women get out of lipstick.

 

But that's actually besides the point.

 

The title of this thread assumes that there is some sort of definitive "Real Man", as opposed to the definitive "Real Woman". And these are all generalizations as dished up to us since the invention of writing. You'd probably agree with me (to a large extent, at least) that the most popular image we have of the "Real Man" is the Marlboro Man. Rough, tough, gritty. You get the idea. Now, picture the Marlboro Man wearing bright red lipstick. Wrong image?

 

Very wrong. But only because we have been conditioned into gender roles. Which is all very well as far as you want to take it - except for the fact that our gender roles are now dictated around products. In the beginning of mass advertising, products were placed around popular definitions of gender-based markets. Today, however, genders define themselves around what the marketing gurus of this world dictate to them. Only ten years ago, what is today being seen as standard for men would've been unthinkable. Men spending hours in the bathroom every morning grooming themselves, applying lotions and getting their hair 'just right' is getting all the more common. Mostly because marketing have made it acceptable.

 

So - to cut a long story short, "Real Men" probably won't be wearing lipstick. But give it another ten years, and they might. To what end, I have no idea, but my point is that our gender roles are very fluid. Especially right now.

[Buffy]

Yeah, thats a Normal Case example. :)

I'm climbing Mt. Everest, and my chaps are dry, all I got is Maybeline..

Ok, just to reach the top...

 

Your example is poor. ;) piss poor.

Oh you know, we're just so illogical and flighty! Purse holding at the store though is something we all do to men, and yet the reaction is still there...

oh, why don't women like being associated with taking a ****, farting, or pissing.??

We don't? Oh, my they are indelicate activities, and we'd be so embarrassed to hear the words spoken. I had a boyfriend who got really purturbed that I left the bathroom door open when...well, you get the picture...

 

Don't be too sure. Here's a joke from the Pancho Barnes book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812992520 I'm reading:

"Ya know," she said, leaning forward into the microphone, lowering her voice as if confiding to 120 people simultaneously, "those stunt pilots were real embarrassed by the name of one of those early movies,

Cock of the Air

." She let that sit for a moment. The audience tittered. Those who knew the legend of Pancho knew she had a legendary dirty mouth. "Yeah," she said, "they wanted to rename it

Penis of the Ozone

..."

...and more directly relevant...

Al and three friends were sitting around the living room of a rancher's house late one night when they heard noises outside. Al flicked on the porch light and went out to investigate....and down beside the house, he saw what he thought was a man squatting. Then came a rough voice. "Turn out that sonuvabitchin' light. Can't you see what I'm doing?" ... Al hurried back inside...a minute later in walke someone wearing an old cowboy hat, a torn jacket and dirty Levi's. "That's Pancho Barnes," one of his friends whispered. "Now which one of you bastards turned the light on?" She was pretending to be mad but had a big grin on her face. Al didn't know what to make of her but admitted he was the culprit. She walked over to him, trying to keep a straight face. "Why'd ya have to stare? Haven't ya ever seen a woman take a piss before?" He just stood there wondering how to react untill this odd woman in old dirty clothes started to laugh, and then they all laughed.

But I'll try to be nice:

learned alot the last couple weeks...

Lo siento mucho, Raccito...Not fun ever. Sorry. There'll be another cute one along in no time though....

 

People come out here to raise hell, :naughty:

Buffy

[paigetheoracle]

Well here's my take on it. Looked at in the short game, yes men are afraid of being thought of as gay, so it's an identity thing. As this is a philosophy forum let's get a bit of thought and reasoning into it, plus later a bit of projection (The long game). Firstly, let's start off with the fact that when we come into this world, sex has no real importance to children except as curiosity as to why there are differences. It's only with puberty that people take sides and start getting defensive about it (assume roles). They then stop becoming children and become males and females instead: Psychologically choose sides. Some don't have a choice (born Hermaphrodite) and it may be Gays don't either. It is my opinion that the soul or basic person (the way we come into the world) has no identity and if reincarnation is a fact, it may explain why some people are attracted to the same sex (male in last life/female in this but hasn't dropped the identification: See studies where children seem to remember past lives). This may be more a theological than a philosophical argument but it could also be genetic as part of a broad spectrum of differences in chromosomal identity for the geneticists out there.

 

Now the long game argument. If sexual identity is part of a broad spectrum, could it be that as we reach the middle, who we are becomes blurred physically (hermaphrodism and other gender problems)as well as mentally and spiritually (emotionally - I see spirit as free energy, matter as bound energy and mind as the controlling influence between the two: This defines my terms, so you know where I'm coming from on this): See 'Systemic Universe' posting by me and the black, white and grey issues, for further clarification. This journey towards (The Tao) or evolution of a society: Where an individual is going is also where the larger body of a civilization heads towards as well, eventually. What I'm saying by this is that maybe throughout eternity, the individual plays many roles (Shakespeare)and this can lead us from one sex to the other, through gender-bending roles too. If this happens in the larger society as well, you'd expect social mores to change with it - hence what our fathers would put up with, we wouldn't and vice-versa. During a war or in pioneering times, life could be viewed as more crude (masculine) - during peace or in settled society, life softens and becomes more refined (feminine). This would then explain conflict as backlashes against this process, trying to re-establish a firm hold on reality as opposed to a more lenient, relaxed one. Hope this answers your question or at least gives you something to think about.:eek: :eek_big: :confused: :doh: :eek2: :evil:

[IDMclean]

Ok two things,

One, I feel that bias is being put in the way of criticial thinking.

Two, This discussion is built inately on a Fallacy, it's all in the title.

 

No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:

 

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."

Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

 

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.

 

Some elements or actions are exclusively contradictory to the subject, and therefore aren't fallacies. The statement "No true vegetarian would eat a beef steak" is not fallacious because it follows from the accepted definition of "vegetarian:" Eating meat, by definition, disqualifies a (present-tense) categorization among vegetarians, and the further value judgement between a "true vegetarian" and the implied "false vegetarian" cannot likewise be categorized as a fallacy, given the clear disjunction. In logic, the mutually exclusive contradiction is called a logical disjunction.

 

Using the context of culture, individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

 

It is also a common fallacy in politics, in which critics may condemn their colleagues as not being "true" liberals or conservatives because they occasionally disagree on certain matters of policy. It comes in many other forms - "No decent person would" - it is argued "support hanging/watch pornography/smoke in public", etc. Often the speaker seems unaware that he/she is, in fact, coercively (re)defining what the phrase "decent person" means to include/exclude what he/she wants and NOT simply following what the phrase is already accepted as meaning. The argument shifts the debate from being about hanging/pornography/smoking and tries to make it seem that anyone disagreeing with the speaker is arguing for the "indecent".

[coberst]

I suspect this thread is an example of why everyone concludes that nothing of substance can be engaged on an Internet forum. The point of the thread was something of substance but all we get is a discussion of men and lipstick. Really is giggling and throwing sand at one another all we are capable of here?

[Jay-qu]

possibly the weirdest thread I have seen in a while..

 

I would like to ask what you meant be a "Real" man?

 

Also I dont even see a reason for women to wear lipstick.. my girlfriend never did, I dont see any advantages in it.

[CraigD]

a straight man should not wear lipstick.:eek2: or pantyhose, or garter belts.

A straight man will wear anything suggested when attempting to romantically ingratiate himself with a woman who is an object of his desire.

 

I’ve worn everything from 3-piece pinstripe suits to a full-blown Frank N. Furter costume with makeup at the request of objects of my heterosexual affection, and must report that Rocky Horror scene women are more to my taste than those who like pinstripes.

 

In the common usage “a real man” often means “a self-confident male person.” People of either gender who are too timid to cross dress or otherwise deviate from stereotypical norms in a manner that injures no one are rarely considered self-confident in this way.

[paigetheoracle]

In the common usage “a real man” often means “a self-confident male person.” People of either gender who are too timid to cross dress or otherwise deviate from stereotypical norms in a manner that injures no one are rarely considered self-confident in this way.

 

Interesting point as the definition of what is a real man, is central to this issue - physically it's less difficult to ascertain but androgeny does abound genetically to make even this uncertain as mentioned earlier. What are the characteristics of a real man?

[DarkColoredLight]

Man can wear lip balm, chapstick, Carmex, or whatever topical ointment.

Why color your lips?

 

Get priorities straight,

Rac

 

Good point. I couldn't of said it better myself. ;)

 

I think this M/F thing goes with the whole lotion thing too. Some manly men don't think moisture is important. They work, sweat, eat, and live hard. So they want their body to compliment that. Which, as we all know, goes well with the PYT in the red dress that us men like to drool over.

 

However, in my neck of the woods, body oils aren't produced (eczema). So to avoid pain and the general discomfort that I've felt in the past, it's important for me to apply said lotion. On the same note, the "girly" lotions are scented, which often time don't go well with the cologne I might want for a particular evening. So when I'm shopping for lotion I get unscented lotion, my equivalent to; uncolored lip applicant.

 

I'm assuming you're a man, go ahead and try some Burt's Bees Wax for the lip thing. Unless you're too much of a man. Then, I would suggest some 150-grit sandpaper, you'll find it somewhere between your tool box and your pride. :eek2:

[TheFaithfulStone]

Two, This discussion is built inately on a Fallacy, it's all in the title.

 

Awesome KAC.

 

French aristocrats wore lipstick and makeup.

 

More like "Will an American man of the twentieth century wear cosmetics on his lips?"

 

Answer - probably not - but that's just socially constructed gender identity.

 

TFS

[paigetheoracle]

Loved the sandpaper quip! Must try it sometime.:eek2:

[IDMclean]

I'm a Clown, I would like to note.

 

For Costume reasons i would definiately wear all manners of Makeup.

 

Also I play a Live Action Role Playing game on fridays at the University, and once again for character perposes, I would wear make-up.