Will a Real Man wear Lipstick?

[Buffy]

I suspect this thread is an example of why everyone concludes that nothing of substance can be engaged on an Internet forum. The point of the thread was something of substance but all we get is a discussion of men and lipstick. Really is giggling and throwing sand at one another all we are capable of here?

Not really. You *can* get the thread back to your point, but you should be aware that the main reason it got so off track is that a lot of us are completely confused about what point you were trying to discuss. I tried to find a link and make it part of the discussion (although obviously not everyone has followed that line), but I think we could all use some further explication of your concepts and what you'd like us all to talk about.

 

Its your thread! Lead away sir!

 

Baited breath,

Buffy

[coberst]

Not really. You *can* get the thread back to your point, but you should be aware that the main reason it got so off track is that a lot of us are completely confused about what point you were trying to discuss. I tried to find a link and make it part of the discussion (although obviously not everyone has followed that line), but I think we could all use some further explication of your concepts and what you'd like us all to talk about.

 

Its your thread! Lead away sir!

 

Baited breath,

Buffy

 

Thank you Mis Buffy.

 

Just as an aside I think that the moderators on these discussion forums could improve the quality of our discussions greatly if they were to develop a short sentence or two that summarizes the essential point of the OP and insert it now and then in the thread.

 

From these war wounds I have learned that everyone is a critical thinker, therefore we must delineate the types of critical thinking if we are to discuss the matter.

 

I use the following classification of critical thinkers:

1. Reagan style critical thinking—Trust but Verify

2. Stout critical thinking—Reagan style plus Logic 101

3. CT (Critical Thinking)—Stout critical thinking plus critical self-consciousness.

 

Critical self-consciousness is what our schools and colleges have added to the mix. The critical self-conscious aspect of CT is taught in the lower grades because the closer one comes to adulthood the greater the influence of the ego and no adult ego will allow its brain to be called uncritical.

 

What I have said in these three paragraphs form the essence of my OP. I will not try to clarify these words because they seem perfectly clear to me. But anything that is not clear I will try to clarify.

 

Questions:

Do you think everyone is a critical thinker?

Do you think my description of the three types of critical thinking has validity?

Does the phrase ‘Logic 101’ make sense to you?

Do you think that knowledge of Logic 101 will help you make better judgments?

Would you like to give a short description of what Logic 101 means to you?

Do you understand my reference to Reagan?

[pgrmdave]

It isn't the job of the moderators to summarize the essential point of the original post. We do try to keep most discussions on track, but if the original post is difficult to interpret then it becomes much more difficult.

 

As for the critical thinkers...

 

1 - No, I think that critical thinking is a learned skill.

 

2 - No, I think that critical thinking is much more than those three ways.

 

3 - Yes, basic logic is understandable.

 

4 - Yes, but knowledge of nearly anything will help you make better judgements.

 

5 - No :eek_big:

 

6 - Yes, but not completely (I was born in 1986, so I never really knew the guy)

[InfiniteNow]

Disturbing are the blatent insecurities with one's own sexuality displayed in this thread.

 

coberst, your initial post was not entirely clear. However,

 

Do you think everyone is a critical thinker?

No

Do you think my description of the three types of critical thinking has validity?

Some, but it is by no means complete.

Does the phrase ‘Logic 101’ make sense to you?

Seems to imply a basic class on the concept of logic, but it would take more exchange before we'd agreed upon the term's meaning.

Do you think that knowledge of Logic 101 will help you make better judgments?

Perhaps.

Would you like to give a short description of what Logic 101 means to you?

See above.

Do you understand my reference to Reagan?

Maybe.

 

 

Cheers. :eek_big:

Does the term cheers make sense to you?

[Buffy]

Do you think everyone is a critical thinker?

No. In fact I think its human nature to delude oneself as a left over from self-preservation instincts. Most people have a very hard time looking in the mirror. Kettle-Pot problem, ya know...I'm assuming that's what you're referring to as added in 3.

Do you think my description of the three types of critical thinking has validity?

Its useful, but like everyone else here, I think its inadequate: Those of us who have fiddled with AI know that logic is pretty useless without data and world knowledge, and you haven't said much about that.

Does the phrase ‘Logic 101’ make sense to you?

To me it seems to describe the fundamentals of the *theory* of Logic, but you haven't said which logic (I like mine Fuzzy!), and I wonder whether 101 includes "applied logic".

Do you think that knowledge of Logic 101 will help you make better judgments?

I think its a good place to start. A lot of people really get tripped up by the difference between "if" and "iff"... Its practice with application though where people can really end up in left field.

Would you like to give a short description of what Logic 101 means to you?

Do you understand my reference to Reagan?

Unfortunately I was a news junkie as a kid and I'm just old enough to comprehend the Reagan/Gorbachev reference. I think this has some usefulness, insofar as you can't repeat *everyones* experiments. But I'm not sure how you verify without 101, so I'm not sure of the difference between 1 and 2...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[C1ay]

I would certainly hope that any straight, male police officer working undercover as a lady of the night would redden his lipes so as not to blow his cover...

 

OTOH, I remember reading somewhere that neither men or women should wear lipstick. The article suggested it will age the lips prematurely.

[InfiniteNow]

Wear Lipstick to work tomorrow then InfiniteNow.

 

Will do. I'll just kiss my girlfriend before I leave, and voila... lipstick.

 

 

Anyway, what should I care if I wear lipstick or not? What should anyone else care for that matter? Maybe it's time for a thread to be opened on gender stereotypes, social norms, and the unecessary perpetuation of group think. Oh, wait... there are probably a few threads on the KKK already.

 

 

Cheers. :hihi:

[DarkColoredLight]

Exactly.

 

I suspect its an issue about Ego.

The ego is fixed entirely by the application of self-suggestion.

 

Lipstick is unnecessary. So is it ego to put it on? or is it ego to leave it off?

 

Reject external form that fails to express internal reality. :shrug:

 

...,

Rac

 

Ego is just unexplained justifications for ones actions. "I am what I am, so ha."

 

I'm sure there are other factors that go into an ego, but I consider that a fair definition.

[TheBigDog]

Disturbing are the blatent insecurities with one's own sexuality displayed in this thread.

Yoda?

Questions:

Do you think everyone is a critical thinker?

Do you think my description of the three types of critical thinking has validity?

Does the phrase ‘Logic 101’ make sense to you?

Do you think that knowledge of Logic 101 will help you make better judgments?

Would you like to give a short description of what Logic 101 means to you?

Do you understand my reference to Reagan?

Is everyone a critical thinker? Thought is a reflex. Everyone's mechanism of thought is identical. How we evaluate data and process the meaning of our thoughts is different. This method of evaluation is by weighing everything against our internal value system. Our value system is formed over a lifetime based upon our logical and emotional memory of our past experience. Some people's thought process tends toward what we may define as critical thinking, while other people's thought process does not. People can be trained to discipline their thinking into what is accepted as the definition of critical thinking. But in the end a person's internal values will cause differing conclusions based upon the same input data.

 

And example would be myself and InfiniteNow. Infinite and I have debated on many issues, and while we may agree on the outcome that we wish to see, we can be diametrically opposed as to how to achieve those ends. Does this make one of us a more critical thinker than the other? Not at all. It means that we value things differently. It does not even mean we have different values. It means that he values A before B and I value B before A. We both value A and B, but our methods for achieving the same goal are completely different because of the hierarchy of of internal values.

 

Each of us thinks in the method that we have learned and practiced our whole life. Some thinking leads people to success, other thinking to mediocrity, and other thinking to failure.

 

So the question I would pose back to you coberst is who determines who's values represent critical thought, and who's do not?

 

Bill (not wearing lipstick, but confident enough to do so)

[Edella]

But if what you say is true, then why not wear a dress and lipstick to work?

You wouldn't be hurting anybody. and it shouldn't affect your self-esteem any by the possible/inevitable reactions...right?...So saying "it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter, your self-esteem issues" is all moot unless you demonstrate your conviction!

 

But I doubt you or anyone here, would go that far. So don't tell me I'm wrong.

Racoon,consider that some people wouldn't do what you suggest not because of self-esteem issues,but fear of harassment or physical violence.One could be perfectly fine with someones negative reaction,but fear reprisal.Self-esteem and fear of harassment or getting your *** kicked are different.Lets say you love Brittany Spears,would you dare wear a Brittany Spears T-shirt to a Slayer concert?Would it be a self-esteem issue?

[IDMclean]

Racoon, man, have you ever been to a rocky horror show? Where everyone dress up and all that? It's not exactly "behind closed doors". In fact ,often the people in costume (Read Drag) will act out the movie, or at least that's how it works where I live. Front and center, in view of all.

[IDMclean]

Oh yah, and in case any of you didn't know already.

 

REAL MEN WEAR PINK!

[coberst]

Big Dog

 

I think that you speak with wisdom. You are absolutly correct. I might just add to your comments with my conclusions regarding this matter.

 

The definition of ‘logic’ is—the formal principles of a branch of knowledge. Like many words ‘logic’ has a common usage that most everyone relates the word to the logic of thinking.

 

All domains of knowledge have principles; there is a logic of football, thinking, physics, fly-fishing, etc. When I say Wal-Mart is the logic of capitalism I mean that Wal-Mart follows very closely the logic of capitalism. Wal-Mart is the manifestation of the principles of capitalism.

 

There is a logic of thinking; there is a logic of the functioning mind. Aristotle was the first person to describe the principles of thinking and he entitled his work as “Logic”, I think.

 

If we know the logic of thinking we can better guide our thinking and thus make better judgments. Knowing the logic of thinking provides us with the ability to think well but of course our conclusions reached depend also upon our knowledge and values.

 

One can recognize that the other person is thinking logically but also disagree with that person’s conclusions; that person’s judgment. We disagree because we come to the matter with different knowledge and values.

 

Democracy works best, I think, when every citizen knows the logic of good judgment and together we try to work out the best conclusions based upon our separate knowledge data bank and our separate set of values.

[coberst]

Pgrmdave

 

If you were not taught the basic logic (principles) of thinking in school do you think it would be wise to learn it on your own initiative?

 

President Reagan often used the phrase “trust but verify” when referring to his dealings with the Soviet Union during his administration.

[coberst]

InfinityNow

 

 

President Reagan often used the phrase “trust but verify” when referring to his dealings with the Soviet Union during his administration.

 

 

The definition of ‘logic’ is—the formal principles of a branch of knowledge. Like many words ‘logic’ has a common usage that most everyone relates the word to the logic of thinking.

 

All domains of knowledge have principles; there is a logic of football, thinking, physics, fly-fishing, etc. When I say Wal-Mart is the logic of capitalism I mean that Wal-Mart follows very closely the logic of capitalism. Wal-Mart is the manifestation of the principles of capitalism.

 

There is a logic of thinking; there is a logic of the functioning mind. Aristotle was the first person to describe the principles of thinking and he entitled his work as “Logic”, I think.

 

If we know the logic of thinking we can better guide our thinking and thus make better judgments. Knowing the logic of thinking provides us with the ability to think well but of course our conclusions reached depend also upon our knowledge and values.

 

One can recognize that the other person is thinking logically but also disagree with that person’s conclusions; that person’s judgment. We disagree because we come to the matter with different knowledge and values.

 

Democracy works best, I think, when every citizen knows the logic of good judgment and together we try to work out the best conclusions based upon our separate knowledge data bank and our separate set of values.

[coberst]

Buffy

 

Regarding what Logic 101 means:

 

 

The definition of ‘logic’ is—the formal principles of a branch of knowledge. Like many words ‘logic’ has a common usage that most everyone relates the word to the logic of thinking.

 

All domains of knowledge have principles; there is a logic of football, thinking, physics, fly-fishing, etc. When I say Wal-Mart is the logic of capitalism I mean that Wal-Mart follows very closely the logic of capitalism. Wal-Mart is the manifestation of the principles of capitalism.

 

There is a logic of thinking; there is a logic of the functioning mind. Aristotle was the first person to describe the principles of thinking and he entitled his work as “Logic”, I think.

 

If we know the logic of thinking we can better guide our thinking and thus make better judgments. Knowing the logic of thinking provides us with the ability to think well but of course our conclusions reached depend also upon our knowledge and values.

 

One can recognize that the other person is thinking logically but also disagree with that person’s conclusions; that person’s judgment. We disagree because we come to the matter with different knowledge and values.

 

Democracy works best, I think, when every citizen knows the logic of good judgment and together we try to work out the best conclusions based upon our separate knowledge data bank and our separate set of values.

 

Buffy the reason I said that everyone is a critical thinker is because I have discovered that every adult’s ego goes berserk if anyone implies that their brain is not a critical thinker. The way to fool the ego here is to say that everyone is a critical thinker and then find a definition of critical thinking that will encompass everyone and since we see that President Reagan was such a critical thinker then nobody’s ego gets upset.

[InfiniteNow]

Was there really a need to write it (or should I say "paste" it) three times?