Guantanamo Bay

[paigetheoracle]

Interrogation or dominance behaviour? According to a BBC wildlife program, the most dominant male blackbird (British not American version) in an area, is also the most stupid (David Attenborough quote). This it shows in violence to any other bird entering its territory. I also read of a study, of a particular bat species that as its testicles enlarged, its brain size diminished. Put these two together and what you have is that the lowest in our society will, when they get the upper hand, try to debase those they've 'conquered' (Incidents of both British and American troops in Iraq as well as historically in more wars than I can to mention).

 

The relationship to interrogation is that torture is usely effective in breaking a man's will but is pretty ineffective at getting at the truth (Please correct me if I'm wrong - like animal testing, I've yet to see proof in the form of major breakthroughs from either technique). However as demonstated on a National Geographic program, Brain Fingerprinting (University of Washington, Dr Lawrence Farwell)seems to be able to display the truth effectively - so why is this and other techniques not being used? Are the motives behind the Governments use of such an establishment, ostensibly what it says or part of something more primitive and ritualistic?:(

[Tormod]

Guantanamo Bay is a display of power and arrogance. It is a violation of human rights on so many levels that it's hard to list them all. It is also perhaps the most disgusting act performed by the US administration in a long time.

 

Not only have the US administration forced other countries to sign an agreement that American soldiers cannot be detained and accused of war crimes, but they also defined a new category of people ("illegal combatants") so that they can pretend that people who fight wars the US does not like, are not really covered by international agreements.

 

It is sickening. I am not in any way defending the horrible acts of terrorism that happened on 9/11, but Guantanamo Bay is not the US Army's finest monument.

[pgrmdave]

If it weren't for the horrid conditions I'd be more torn. On the one hand, I do believe that a majority of those held would try to harm American citizens if they could, and are being held for the right reasons. On the other hand, unless we either charge them with war crimes, or deem them POWs, I don't know if it's really right to hold them. Should we hold them wrongly, or release them, knowing that some of them are going to kill American soldiers, and possibly American civilians?

[Mercedes Benzene]

The idea of Guantanamo Bay is an excellent one. However, the many things that occur there are not so excellent...

I do think it is a good idea that terrorists, and other individuals plotting to damage US and world interests, should be detained in a special prison far from anywhere else (GUANTANAMO BAY!:) ), but the many stories that come out of there don't seem so good.

Every day it seems, there is something on the news about cruel or inhumane activities occuring there.

But it seems that these days, I just do not know what to believe. :hyper:

[paigetheoracle]

But it seems that these days, I just do not know what to believe. :shrug:

 

What can you ever be sure of except what is two foot in front of your face? Unless these pictures are faked, we have to take them on face value. As for the guilt or innocense of these people, I thought it was for the courts to decide from the evidence presented? I've heard some of the supposed cover stories and to be frank, I've heard schoolboys tell better and more plausible sounding lies. Again though, from a philosophical viewpoint, what can we be sure of it, except through direct experience (being there ourselves).

 

As for my original question - what is the purpose of all this? Is it really to get at the truth and if so has it? If it hasn't, then more reliable methods should be used, including the attitude that you don't know anything for sure about these peoples guilt or innocense until you discover the truth: Trying to force a confession from an innocent man, is like trying to pull teeth from a man who hasn't got any - it may lead to his death but it won't arrive at the truth in a million years.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Guantanamo Bay is a display of power and arrogance. It is a violation of human rights on so many levels that it's hard to list them all. It is also perhaps the most disgusting act performed by the US administration in a long time.

 

If the good guys win by being just as bad (or worse) than the bad guys, does it still count as the good guys winning?

 

If we torture innocent people in Guantanamo (and there are indications that we have done just that, although I believe we call it "extracting falsified confessions" or something) do we "win"?

 

If we give up "the American way of life" to defend "American soil" what have we won but a bunch of SUVs and a seat close to the fire?

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that radical Islam is probably the biggest threat to humanity since the Nazi's. But there was no stated policy that random blond-haired & blue-eyed people would be tortured (I'm sorry, "stressed and duressed") until they admitted to running the ovens.

 

Gitmo is the largest terrorist victory to date.

 

TFS

[UncleAl]

Google

zimbardo stanford mirrored 914 hits

zimbardo stanford nazi 9610 hits

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

 

Ho hum. Feminine societies seek consensus and cry when they do not get it. Masculine societies take what they want or kick butt and take it anyway. The US is long past being able to impress its will on competitors. Big milky boobies, no balls. The US seeks seduction like a girlie, then cries its eyes out when it gets screwed and abandoned. As with Rome, the city gates will suddenly crumble. As the efficient, enthusiastic slaughter spreads... Liberals will be whining that lead bullets released into the environment could poison our children.

[TheFaithfulStone]

:shrug:

 

That's nice.

 

TFS

[Mercedes Benzene]

Thank you, UncelAl, for that vivid analysis. :shrug:

What would we do without you?:hihi:

[Tormod]

The idea of Guantanamo Bay is an excellent one.

 

Yes. Concentration camps are stunningly wonderful things. It's a great way to meet new people, get lots of air, and you won't get unemployed. You even get people to look after you and make sure you don't lose focus. It is also an easy way to lose weight and change your lifestyle.

 

It worked great under Hitler, Stalin, Mao and most other dictators. It worked in the US for giving Japanese a holiday during WWII. It worked great in modern times too, like the Former Republic of Yugoslavia. It apparently works great in the modern USA today.

 

Three cheers for humanity and intelligence, hooray for life. Hooray for Guanatanamo Bay Holiday Center and the way it shows our deep respect for the rights of human beings.

[Mercedes Benzene]

I did not mean to say that the idea of a concentration camp is good.

What I meant was that the idea of an isolated prison dedicated specifically to the containment of international terrorists and conspirators is better than:

a.) killing them

or

b.) housing them in a state penitentiary 5 miles from my house!!!!

 

I do not condone the mistreatments that occur there, and I certainly do not approve of the fact that illegal or inhumane activities take place there...

 

Please do not take my posts out of context and respond in a sarcastic manner that detracts from the true meaning of what I have to say.

[Edella]

I do think it is a good idea that terrorists, and other individuals plotting to damage US and world interests, should be detained in a special prison far from anywhere else

Far from anywhere else?Since when is Cuba far from anywhere else?

 

BTW does anyone know the rational for detaining these people at Guantanamo Bay?According to the U.S. government,the "detention center" is completely legal,so why have it in Cuba?

[Mercedes Benzene]

Hahhaha. Its kinda funny actually. The Cubans do not want the Guantanamo Bay facility to be there... in fact, its actually illegal for it to be in Cuba...

but whatever... it just goes to show how brilliant some of America's ideas are (=.=) ...put terrorists in a country that the US wants nothing to do with. :thumbs_do

 

And actually Edella, with all due respect, Guantanamo Bay is not near any significant civilization in Cuba.:hihi:

[Tormod]

Please do not take my posts out of context and respond in a sarcastic manner that detracts from the true meaning of what I have to say.

 

Merc, how could we know the "true meaning" of your post? Cutting down quotes to show what we comment upon is in fact the most common way to discuss.

 

Sarcasm is a neat weapon. Did you know that humor was one of the ways many Jews managed to survive the camps, and tell their stories afterwards? I bet the President of Iran didn't know that when he organized a competition to make cartoons of the camps last year.

[Mercedes Benzene]

Sarcasm is a neat weapon. Did you know that humor was one of the ways many Jews managed to survive the camps, and tell their stories afterwards? I bet the President of Iran didn't know that when he organized a competition to make cartoons of the camps last year.

:hihi: :thumbs_do

Good one.

 

And the "true meaning" of my posts is exactly what I say... I'm not a very figurative person.

[Tormod]

And the "true meaning" is exactly what I say.

 

I favor personal interpretation myself. :hihi:

[Cedars]

Far from anywhere else?Since when is Cuba far from anywhere else?

 

BTW does anyone know the rational for detaining these people at Guantanamo Bay?According to the U.S. government,the "detention center" is completely legal,so why have it in Cuba?

 

If I remember right,its control over access. I think if the camp was on US soil rather than off shore, the laws of the land would apply, such as due process, right to an attorney, held without charges, those kinds of hassles...