Flag Desecration

[Turtle]

Should it be illegal to desecrate your country's flag?

[Jay-qu]

I dont think so..

[Boerseun]

Nope. If only purely because of the subjectivity of symbolism.

[Jules Grimm]

I honestly dont see why it should - few people revere their flag that much. (as far as i know)

[TheBigDog]

I say that it should be illegal to desecrate the Flag. Not just the US flag, but the flag of any nation. I am not looking at prison time. It should be a very minor offense, nothing more than a small fine. But it is symbolic of a society's respect for the symbol of nations.

 

Bill

[ronthepon]

The flag is a symbol of the country's honour. It is a symbol of the country. Disrespect your country, you disrespect your country. Disrespect your country, you disrespect your countrymen. Do that and you are officially not a very good guy.

 

It is illegal here. Thank god for that.

[Boerseun]

You surely shouldn't need laws in order to respect your country.

[TheBigDog]

You surely shouldn't need laws in order to respect your country.

We shouldn't need laws about littering or grafitti but we have them. I look at this the same way.

 

Bill

[TheFaithfulStone]

We wouldn't have laws about littering and grafitti if once every ten years some jerk spray-painted "I hate the gubmint" on a bridge.

 

In other words, littering and grafitti are actually problems because they

1. Damage the environment

2. Damage property

3. Are rarely political speech.

4. Happen every day.

 

When was the last time protesters (in the US) burned an American flag? 2000? I think it was.

<BZZZ factual error. There were actually four burned last year... still pretty insignificant>

 

TFS

[eloxer]

In ethics only responsibilities of individuals against individuals can be considered. A flag is just a symbol of masses and desacrating it doesn't implicate moral failure against any indivdual. In worst case it can be considered a wrong use of a symbol but we also don't put people in jail because of using wrong words (other kinds of symbols).

Morally you would need to proove that it is wrong to desacrate a flag for any single individual and in general. Murdering is bad no matter where it is. Littering is bad no matter where it is. Speeding in cities is dangerous no matter what city it is. But desectration of flags? A law against it requires validity in a global scope. But see: in the world there will probably be roughly 90% of population who simply doesn't care about your particular flag. The rest 10% might live in your country and any of them will have a different perception of what it is. How to make a law out of it? If somebody feels hurt in his pride then what about tolerance and freedom of speech? The argument for freedom of speech is especially strong here because flags are political and not private symbols. It's logically not possible to pass such a law!

[TheBigDog]

It's logically not possible to pass such a law!

Except that they existed at the federal level and in 36 states from 1942 to 1989. Did you know that it is illegal to fly a red flag in California?

 

Here is an excerp from a wbsite that everyone who favors flag burning as free speech should have next on their list... (source http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-law.html)

 

• California - prohibits the display of the "red flag or any other flag in a public place" as a sign of violent opposition to organized government. No state military group may carry other than the U.S. or State flags.
  
• Colorado - prohibits display of any flag other than U.S. or State on public buildings or grounds, or displays such flag in a place knowing it is likely to cause a breach of the peace.
  
• District of Columbia - prohibits, on U.S. Capitol Grounds a flag designed to bring into public notice a party, organization or movement.
  
• Idaho - prohibits the display of the "red flag or any other flag in a public place" as a sign of violent opposition to organized government. No state military group may carry other than the U.S. or State flags.
  
• Louisiana - prohibits, during time of war, the display the flag of a nation or of a state with which the U.S. is at war.
  
• Massachusetts - prohibits the display of the flag of a foreign country outside of a public building or schoolhouse.
  
• Mississippi - prohibits flags designed to bring into public notice an organization not specifically permitted by statute.
  
• New Hampshire - prohibits the display of a foreign flag on a public building, or the UN flag other than subordinate to the U.S. flag on public property.
  
• New Jersey - prohibits the display of a flag of a foreign country unless accompanied by a U.S. flag of at least equal dimensions.
  
• New York - prohibits the UN flag above the U.S. except at UN HQ. Flags which cast contempt on U.S. flag are prohibited. Foreign flags on public property are prohibited.
  
• North Dakota - prohibits public display of other than the U.S. flag, a State flag, or flag of a friendly foreign nation.
  
• Oklahoma - prohibits "red flag," etc, or any flag "over public property, except roads, stadiums or arenas, unless it is the U.S. flag, the flag of a nation once having dominion over the State, the State flag, an official municipal flag, the Boy Scouts flag, the Girl Scouts flag, the American Red Cross flag, or a flag approved by the governing body..."
  
• Pennsylvania - prohibits other than U.S. flags over public buildings.
  
• Rhode Island - prohibits flags in a parade unless accompanied by U.S. flag, prohibits flags with inscriptions opposed to organized government or derogatory to morals, and prohibits foreign flags from public buildings or schools.
  
• Washington - prohibits flags antagonistic to U.S. or State laws or constitution.
  
• West Virginia - prohibits black or red flags or others antagonistic to U.S. or State constitutions, laws, ideals, and institutions.
  
• Wyoming - prohibits state military organizations from carrying other than U.S. flags.
  

In general, the references to "public property" mean government office buildings, public schools, police stations, etc. The full text of the laws have lots of little details and exceptions.

These are just laws about hoisting or flying flags. Not about burning them. Is this a restriction of free speech? Should a group of activists be taking care of this horrendous imposition by the government to control the thoughts and free expression of its citizens?

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

Did you know that it is illegal to fly a red flag in California?

 

According to the very text you quoted, it is not illegal in California. It is only illegal on public property.

 

So any citizen in California can fly a red flag on private property.

[Boerseun]

Hey Bill - I'm not disputing the fact that they can pass these laws. All I'm saying is that passing an unenforcable law is pointless.

 

Okay, so, passing laws such as these might be symbolic of our commitment to a symbol.

[TheBigDog]

Hey Bill - I'm not disputing the fact that they can pass these laws. All I'm saying is that passing an unenforcable law is pointless.

 

Okay, so, passing laws such as these might be symbolic of our commitment to a symbol.

That is all I am looking for. If symbols mean nothing to us then what is the point of choosing the flag as your symbol to burn? They are burning it BECAUSE people feel strongly about it and they want to be noticed for their actions. I would put forward that having the laws makes the act of burning the flag more meaningful, as the person doing it would be accepting consequence for their deliberate action, rather than doing something that anyone might also dare to do because there is in fact no consequence.

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

According to the very text you quoted, it is not illegal in California. It is only illegal on public property.

 

So any citizen in California can fly a red flag on private property.

So these laws are not a violation of free speech? By extension, would a law against burning a flag on public property be then legal?

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

My apologies Bill. I was being nit picky with your statement that the red flag is illegal for anyone to fly in Ca.

 

First, I think burning the flag is deplorable. Anyone that does this is, in my opinion, the lowest example of humanity. I believe the same of people that protest at cemetaries during burials, and those that teach hate through nazi speeches. I also believe that someone who's wants to yell nazi rhetoric should be able to (and people should be able to yell back about what an idiot they are:)).

 

To your point, I believe it is restricting their first ammendment rights. One of the foundations of this great nation is that people have the right to express themselves. As long as that expression does not tread on another persons rights.

 

To the next point, I agree with you, if you make a constitutional ammendment it would give people that want to burn the flag a more meaningful ... burning. I seem to recall, perhaps someone can correct this or back it up, that after the high court said banning burning the flag was unconstitutional that the number of incidents went down.

 

 

Your point: "They are burning it BECAUSE people feel strongly about it and they want to be noticed for their actions." was a very good point and insight. I agree with that 100%

[Turtle]

Oh bother! Adding the poll required a thread & so now we have the same topic under discussion in 2 threads. :) By the power vested in me by myself, I declare this the offical Flag Desecration Thread.:hyper:

:) Anyway, I have some additional thoughts on the topic. (As if!;) )

:evil: If we plan to enforce the flag rules under law, then we have to enforce them all. If your flag is up past dusk, jail! Flag touched the ground; jail! Athlete draping Old Glory on themself for a victory lap; jail & a fine! Flag patch on any but a military uniform; jail, stiff fine, & a public caning! Granny got a paperweight with a flag; stiff fine & 3 days in the public stocks!

:eek2: Anybody else notice the irony that we should make burning a flag an illegal desecration, but yet the officially recognized manner for disposing of a desecrated flag is burning? Have any of you ever actually attended, seen, participated in, or otherwise witnessed an official flag burning disposal?

 

Guy in protest parade holding burning flag to Gendarme: "Sorry officer; my flag accidently touched the ground so I had to burn it".:eek2: