Enviro-PLONK!

[UncleAl]

One of the most efficient producers of dry weight biomass - survives drought, no insect pests, no fertilizer needed, grows like a weed, tremendous crop density, grows big, seeds loaded with oil - is marijuana. Giggle.

 

An advocate makes virtue of failure. The worse the cure the better the treatment - and the more that is required. Do studies. Send Federal subsides. The E*L*E*C*T*R*I*C car lasted approximatey one business day after Federal support was cancelled.

 

Sugar is C6(H20)6. Carbon is the only part you can burn, 40% by weight. Cellulose is C6(H20)5. Carbon is 44%. Photosynthesis into fuel as national policy is crass stupidity. Every unit operation from planting to processing loses energy - Second Law of Thermodynamics. Having water in your fuel, real or virtual, is idiocy - 540 cal/gram to vaporize at 100 C. No degree of political criminality can avoid thermodynamics. The piper will be paid in full, re Lysenko in Russia. The piper will be paid out of your pockets, suckers.

[IDMclean]

Not mine, not directly. The day the trucks stop, we will be in trouble. Sucks when inflation catches up with a subsidized resource, eh?

 

3 dollars a gallon isn't much, but 5-8$ is. We are headed that way, right quick. One of the main reasons we aren't already there is that our goverment (bless them) subsidizes your Oil use. Artificially alters the ammount you pay at the pumps. Like gold. We have more than enough to flood the market and make it worthless, it is artificially constrained so gold retains it's value. Similar, but not the same techniques.

 

Now as for Corn, and all that? Not likely to fix our problem. May temporarily alleviate our car issues, but this is going to affect much farther than simply our vehicals. Corn and Bio-fuels won't be enough to power our plants. (pun intended). What has to go on is a full out replacement of our Oil dependent power systems.

 

For me this is like watching a crash in slow motion, all I can think is This is going to hurt.

 

We are so utterly dependent on a fuel source that is going to extingiush itself so fast (geologically) that it's not funny, and I laugh at a lot of things. Uncle AI, is correct in laughing at the idea of corn being used to replace our fuel needs. I have some Ideas myself, but most of them are concidered "not enough" or "not realistic", or otherwise simply laughed at.

 

Anyway, without me doing anything. In short enough time, this country and many others will fall into a crunch time, in which life will change very rapiditly. Where traditional Power resources will be low in supply and high in demand.

 

More important that your commute to work each day, ever concidered that the Freight lines which move all the goods we see morning to morning won't be able to opperate with 5-8$ diesel? That cost will come out of our pockets, as long as it can, either from taxes(subsidize), or from increased cost of living(shipping costs).

 

I've looked into Bio-Diesel, and though it may work ok for small time stuff, we are not ready for it to work on a larger scale. It costs to much. Anyone have any idea how much fuel a Big-rig uses between fuel up periods?

[TheFaithfulStone]

One of the most efficient producers of dry weight biomass - survives drought, no insect pests, no fertilizer needed, grows like a weed, tremendous crop density, grows big, seeds loaded with oil - is marijuana. Giggle.

 

Yes, but have you factored in all of the extra corn you'd have to grow to meet the demand for Fritos in an all ganja economy?

 

TPD doesn't just do corn, it does everything organic - but as Clown pointed out, it's probably not good enough. We need wind, tidal, nuclear (fission & fusion) energy in order to keep up this whole "industrial civilization" thing.

 

We need to move to a mixed energy economy, and not one that is utterly dependent on a single substance.

 

TFS

[UncleAl]

Yes, but have you factored in all of the extra corn you'd have to grow to meet the demand for Fritos in an all ganja economy?

Cinnamon applesauce, too. It's not a bug, it's a feature! The obvious solution is mandatory national liposuction and subsequent rendering into Lipoline gasoline, Lipodiesel, Lipolube lubricants... Aren't we missing a bet by not esterifying sugar directly and burning liquid Olestra? No problem with people eating it.

 

The four food groups: Salt sugar, starch, and grease. The seven vitamins: ketchup, tobasco, horseradish, garlic, single malt scotch, coffee, and chocolate.

 

US energy policy is political criminality. Liberal social dialectic and retrocranial inversion religion are meaningless and devastating in an empirical universe. Somewhere along the line, and soon, Washington will exhaust all elasticity and surplus and something will rupture big time.

 

The "all ganja economy." I like that!

[learnin to learn]

Cinnamon applesauce, too. It's not a bug, it's a feature! The obvious solution is mandatory national liposuction and subsequent rendering into Lipoline gasoline, Lipodiesel, Lipolube lubricants... Aren't we missing a bet by not esterifying sugar directly and burning liquid Olestra? No problem with people eating it.

 

The four food groups: Salt sugar, starch, and grease. The seven vitamins: ketchup, tobasco, horseradish, garlic, single malt scotch, coffee, and chocolate.

 

US energy policy is political criminality. Liberal social dialectic and retrocranial inversion religion are meaningless and devastating in an empirical universe. Somewhere along the line, and soon, Washington will exhaust all elasticity and surplus and something will rupture big time.

 

The "all ganja economy." I like that!

 

;) :naughty:

but the seven vitamins are: ketchup, tobasco, chocolate syrup, garlic, single malt scotch, coffee and carmel!!!

[Turtle]

Cinnamon applesauce, too. It's not a bug, it's a feature! The obvious solution is mandatory national liposuction and subsequent rendering into Lipoline gasoline, Lipodiesel, Lipolube lubricants...

I love this idea! In fact, I presented it to my buddy Ace just a couple days ago, including the mandatory part.:hihi:

As a painter I see myself cleaning my brushes with lipotine.:doh:

 

It is a complex mixture of highly refined hydrocarbon distillates mainly in the C9-C16 range. The liquid is highly volatile and the vapours are flammable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_thinner

 

Maybe liposine lamp oil?:eek2: :doh: :lol:

The "all ganja economy." I like that!

Ditto! :)

Hey...let's make it a word: alganjaconomy....:eek: Yeah...that's the ticket.:Waldo:

[Ganoderma]

For me this is like watching a crash in slow motion, all I can think is This is going to hurt.

 

For sure.

 

Without governemnt help and large business it will be very difficult for anythign to happen large scale. How likely is it for the US government (or canadian, chinese or any wealthy country) to start funding new fuel methods in a big way (big meaing trying to find a real replacement, not PR)? i think it will be these 3rd world countries that need a good cheap alternative that will find some answers, although perhaps not a cleaner one.

 

at least we are almost past burning wood.

 

does anybody know about aerospace? i have seen some pretty cool stuff on discovery about new technlogies and close-to-self-propelled-crafts. wonder if these technoligies will soon be put into things like watercraft and vehicles. doesn't solve manufacture, but could definalty relieve a lot of transportation issues.

[Michaelangelica]

The obvious solution is mandatory national liposuction

Excellent idea.

Perhaps you could also post it on the Why are we getting fat? thread?

 

 

This might be of interest

http://www.csrwire.com/PressRelease.php?id=5941

Spain's Abengoa and Acciona are in the process of transitioning from conventional business lines to focusing on sustainable products and services. Abengoa builds various types of solar plants, bioethanol, and desalination plants. It is the world's second-largest bioethanol producer and a leading innovator in cellulosic biomass, currently building the world's first commercial scale biomass plant.

[Ganoderma]

cellulosic biomass.....what exactly is this? they turn cellulose into a bioenergy?

[Michaelangelica]

cellulosic biomass.....what exactly is this? they turn cellulose into a bioenergy?

I did post a reply to this

Seems to have evaporated

Celulose is used, i think, to produce bio-gas

See "Terra preta" thread

 

What do people think of this(anti-plonk) article

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=071206E

[Turtle]

What do people think of this(anti-plonk) article

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=071206E

 

While some scientists find that making ethanol uses more energy than it yields, scientist Marcelo Dias de Oliveira, disagrees. But looking at the full "ecological footprint," taking into account cropland used, water consumed, and other secondary factors to the ethanol process, Oliveira found that ethanol is a net drag on the planet. "The use of ethanol as a substitute for gasoline proved to be neither a sustainable nor an environmentally friendly option," he wrote "considering ecological footprint values, and both net energy and CO2 offset considerations seemed relatively unimportant compared to the ecological footprint."[vii]

 

On all these scores -- its contribution to smog and soil erosion, and its "ecological footprint" -- ethanol is almost as costly to the environment as it is to American drivers and taxpayers.

 

How many jules of energy in a politician?:)

[learnin to learn]

:shrug:how many?

[Michaelangelica]

This may be of interest

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/July/13070601.asp

Catalyst cracks tough cellulose

 

13 July 2006

 

Metal catalysts can break down cellulose into simple sugar alcohols, Japanese chemists have found, marking an important step in the quest to produce green fuels from renewable resources.

The catalysts could ultimately turn relatively undigestible plant materials into so-called biofuels, or important feedstock chemicals.1

 

The search for alternatives to fossil fuels dates back to the petrol crisis of the early 1970s, but the looming dangers of climate change combined with high petrol prices are driving a renewed interest in biofuels.

 

Countries and companies that have persisted in the quest since the early days are now leading the field. Brazil, for example, already runs half of its vehicle fleet on pure ethanol, made by fermenting sugar cane extracts. However, this approach relies on high-quality biomass, which is produced at a cost and could just as well serve as food for humans or livestock.

Bioethanol would be much greener if it could be produced from agricultural waste materials, such as straw, wood chips, or bagasse (a byproduct of sugar production from sugar cane), a conclusion confirmed by a recent analysis of biofuel efficiency.2 But this means breaking apart the inedible plant polymer cellulose, which is much tougher than the easily digestible starch.

 

Enzymes can help to chew up cellulose, and the Iogen Corporation has a demonstration plant in Ottawa, Canada, that can turn 25 tonnes of wheat straw into ethanol every week.

In May 2006, Iogen made headlines by attracting the first Wall Street investment into ethanol, a $30 million cash injection from Goldman Sachs, which is earmarked to accelerate Iogen’s commercialisation program.

But Atsush Fukuoka and Paresh Dhepe of Hokkaido University, Japan, claim to have developed two metal catalysts that could outperform enzymes.

They used platinum and ruthenium, supported on silica or alumina, to convert an aqueous mixture of cellulose and hydrogen gas into glucose at about 190ºC.

This sugar was then reduced to the sugar alcohols sorbitol and mannitol, which were easily separated from the reaction in an overall yield of 31 per cent.

Sorbitol can be used to make fuel hydrocarbons,3 while both sugar alcohols are useful feedstock compounds. It may also be possible to extract glucose directly from the reaction, which could then be fermented to produce ethanol.

[Ganoderma]

does anyoen know if mushrooms have been studied at all? they are excellent at breaking down cellulose. fast growing popular ones such as oysters could potentially break down a fair bit. the advantage beign space as they dont need light like plants. anyone know what exactly certain sp like oysters turn cellulose into?

[Michaelangelica]

does anyoen know if mushrooms have been studied at all? they are excellent at breaking down cellulose. fast growing popular ones such as oysters could potentially break down a fair bit. the advantage beign space as they dont need light like plants. anyone know what exactly certain sp like oysters turn cellulose into?

Good thinking; but they may get their nitrogen from eating bacteria and worms!

The Carbon to Nitrogen ratio (C:N) of wood is extremely high and nitrogen is the limiting factor for growth. For decay fungi, predation of nematodes or other organisms adds extra protein (nitrogen) to the system and reduces the C:N to manageable proportions.

. . .

many of the fungi involved in decay that we have referred to as saprobes (or saprophytes) have a Jekyll and Hyde existence and, as well as being apparently innocuous saprobes, they also have the faculty of becoming aggressive predators of a variety of other microscopic life forms including nematodes, bacteria, pollen grains, yeasts etc.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~gbarron/MISC2003/feb03.htm

[Ganoderma]

Good points. I am curious about cultivation. Everything is kept sterile. Lets take oyster for example (but same goes for many mushroom cults). Lets pretend you decide on bag cultivation (a very commonly used method). You place your sawdust or straw or whatever it is you decide on into your bag. You seal it air/water tight. you then proceed to cook it under extreme heat killing all bacteria and competing fungi (this is to avoid contamination). An example would be a small 250 ml jar is put in the pressure cooker under 10-15 psi at some high heat (mine did not have a thermostat) in the upper 100's c. this lasts about an hour to 2 hours. we used 10"x8"x18" high bags for ganoderma, and oyster and cooked them in a pot of boiling water for about 6 hours.

 

Would all these bacteria and nematodes really survive this? The only non-sterile aspect of the procedure is inoculation (but you can buy sterile syringes if you want to spend the $) and opening the bag for fruiting (it has already decomposed much of the substrate by that point).

 

i am a little curious as to what would happen to the nitrogen. perhaps it stays untapped? The substrate after mushroom growing is far from dirt like....its still chunky. Maybe some sp do find a way with nitrogen?

 

I really think mushrooms have a lot of potential. They also are convenient because you can do them without light. Stack bags high as the clouds if you like. Really a space saving and good way of recycling waste and you get to eat. There are a lot of studies being done on mushroom substrates and waste material. Such as expired crops like corn, sugar cane, banana etc....and it seems to be working. A great site is http://mushworld.com/ although I cant say as i understand half of what they are talking about :hihi:

[Michaelangelica]

Another Oz science discussion group I belong to is also discussing this. (The pollies here are thinking of making 10% ethanol mandatory in petrol-

I saw a show on Brazillian cars last night which can run on gas, petrol, petrol and alcohol and straight alcohol. You just go to the Gas station and choose the cheapest fuel! It is Fiat technology)

 

> http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/July/13070601.asp

 

Interesting -- but more interesting is one of their references: here is

the abstract and a 'Perspectives' summary about it. Note that the

'Perspectives' piece says ethanol is NOT the way to go, but alkanes are

-- and gives reasons that had never occurred to me.

 

We still need to discover some hydrogen wells.

 

 

ABSTRACT

Science 3 June 2005:

Vol. 308. no. 5727, pp. 1446 - 1450

DOI: 10.1126/science.1111166

 

Production of Liquid Alkanes by Aqueous-Phase Processing of

Biomass-Derived Carbohydrates

George W. Huber, Juben N. Chheda, Christopher J. Barrett, James A. Dumesic*

 

Liquid alkanes with the number of carbon atoms ranging from C7 to C15

were selectively produced from biomass-derived carbohydrates by

acid-catalyzed dehydration, which was followed by aldol condensation

over solid base catalysts to form large organic compounds. These

molecules were then converted into alkanes by dehydration/hydrogenation

over bifunctional catalysts that contained acid and metal sites in a

four-phase reactor, in which the aqueous organic reactant becomes more

hydrophobic and a hexadecane alkane stream removes hydrophobic species

from the catalyst before they go on further to form coke. These liquid

alkanes are of the appropriate molecular weight to be used as

transportation fuel components, and they contain 90% of the energy of

the carbohydrate and H2 feeds.

 

Department of Chemical and Biological Engineering, University of

Wisconsin at Madison, Madison, WI 53706, USA.

 

 

PERSPECTIVES

Science 3 June 2005:

Vol. 308. no. 5727, pp. 1421 - 1422

DOI: 10.1126/science.1113354

 

Prev | Table of Contents | Next

Perspectives

CHEMISTRY:

Making Fuels from Biomass

Jens R. Rostrup-Nielsen

 

In an effort to replace fossil hydrocarbon fuels, chemists have looked

for ways to convert biomass to useful fuels. In his Perspective,

Rostrup-Nielsen discusses recent work on converting carbohydrates such

as sugars and cellulose to ethanol and hydrogen, both of which can serve

as alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels. However, ethanol requires an

expensive distillation step, and hydrogen would require a new

infrastructure. He highlights the report by Huber et al., who have found

a way to convert carbohydrates directly to hydrocarbons. The latter

would not require a new infrastructure nor expensive distillation.

 

peter

- Show quoted text -

 

 

Michael

17-Jul (3 days ago)

Never heard of alkanes

 

 

Yes you have -- methane, ethane, propane, octane are all alkanes -- it

is just a general term for a class of hydrocarbons, some gaseous, some

liquid: larger ones are liquids at room temperature.

 

The 'Perspectives' article apparently makes it clear that there is an

energy loss in going to ethanol that can be avoided by making alkanes

instead. We have the infrastructure in place to work with stuff like

that, in the form of oil refineries -- and engines that can use it, as is.

 

That's why I like it as an idea.

 

peter

>

> Liquid alkanes with the number of carbon atoms ranging from C7 to C15

> were selectively produced from biomass-derived carbohydrates by

> acid-catalyzed dehydration, which was followed by aldol condensation

> over solid base catalysts to form large organic compounds. These

> molecules were then converted into alkanes by dehydration/hydrogenation

> over bifunctional catalysts that contained acid and metal sites in a

> four-phase reactor, in which the aqueous organic reactant becomes more

> hydrophobic and a hexadecane alkane stream removes hydrophobic species

> from the catalyst before they go on further to form coke. These liquid

> alkanes are of the appropriate molecular weight to be used as

> transportation fuel components, and they contain 90% of the energy of

> the carbohydrate and H2 feeds.

However, ethanol requires an

> expensive distillation step, and hydrogen would require a new

> infrastructure. He highlights the report by Huber et al., who have found

> a way to convert carbohydrates directly to hydrocarbons. The latter

> would not require a new infrastructure nor expensive distillation.

>

> peter