Where do angels come from?

[ughaibu]

You haven't written anything that hasn't been covered, I still dont see how this is relevant to my post that you quoted above. Perhaps if you try to respond directly, rather than intentionally "going off topic", your meaning will be less vague.

[CraigD]

…

"Tryptamine Hallucinogens

and Consciousness"

by Terence McKenna…

Though, at nearly 6700 word, McKenna’s essay is slightly lengthy, I encourage everyone with an interest to read it, carefully, skeptically, but with an open mind.

 

McKenna, who in this essay describes himself as “not a scientist, but an explorer” makes some catchy analogies, scientifically sensible speculation, wild speculation, and a few glaring errors, all couched in an attitude of admitted uncertainty. It may be the best essay on several of the subjects if touches on I’ve ever read – I found it compelling, provoking me to make an extraordinary 23 notations (nearly one notation/300 words).

 

Just this essay, let alone the body of McKenna’s speaking and writing, has ideas enough for tens of threads. Many of these ideas appear to speak directly to misconceptions and misunderstanding I believe I’ve seen from posters from all over the spectrum, from materialist to mystic. I look forward to some good discussion.

[Turtle]

Though, at nearly 6700 word, McKenna’s essay is slightly lengthy, I encourage everyone with an interest to read it, carefully, skeptically, but with an open mind.

 

McKenna, who in this essay describes himself as “not a scientist, but an explorer” makes some catchy analogies, scientifically sensible speculation, wild speculation, and a few glaring errors, all couched in an attitude of admitted uncertainty.

 

I have listened to Terrance on the Coast to Coast AM nightime radio show a number of times talking about his work. Craig has characterized it quite well here. After these hearings I don't anticipate reading his writings inasmuch as he summarized the salient points. (McKenna, not Craig...well Craig did too but I didn't mean him this time:hihi: )

 

I like John Smith's angels because they brought a hi-fi; what was he smokin? Eatin' some ergot maybe?:hyper:

[paigetheoracle]

You haven't written anything that hasn't been covered, I still dont see how this is relevant to my post that you quoted above. Perhaps if you try to respond directly, rather than intentionally "going off topic", your meaning will be less vague.

 

Hopefully this example will clear things up. I'm challenging the 'given', which is that ordinary, everday perception is always accurate and reliable as you seem to claim. There was an experiment where members of the public were subjected to an unexpected mock robbery. They were then asked to describe the incident and the perpetrators. The results showed that peoples perceptions were flawed, contradicting each other in their descriptions of what happened and what the robbers looked like.

 

Like CraigD, I would ask that you read McKennas accounts (amongst others on the same subject) as he describes an incident of taking a drug that locals said would put him in contact with their God (An Alligator or Lizard cross type creature) and that is what he saw too. You might say this is suggestion and response but does that explain the whole tribe having the same response and if so doesn't this itself go back to consensus reality and the way we consider others insane for not sharing our view of reality and sane when they do? (Genius is also this same thing in action but this individual consciousness is incorporated into society to make the new paradigm accepted not rejected out of hand)

 

By the way trauma as in the bank robbery experiment, is the same sleight of hand trick magicians use to confuse the public - hence the same result ie confusion. Anything done slowly or concentrated upon hard enough becomes clear as to mechanics.

 

If you consider this waffle as opposed to reasoned argument in depth, then you are not examining it but dismissing it and that's your choice: You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it think. I can see the reasoning behind your argument and it's a pity you cannot see mine but that's life!:hyper:

[ughaibu]

Let's say there are ten witnesses to a bank robbery, nine give various accounts including the usual and expected inconsistencies, the tenth gives an account of four dimensional fractal elves oozing through the walls.

[Queso]

Let's say there are ten witnesses to a bank robbery, nine give various accounts including the usual and expected inconsistencies, the tenth gives an account of four dimensional fractal elves oozing through the walls.

 

:lol: So that's where angels come from?

[stanleyg]

Over the years, and through many translations, by many different men of Power, with different agenda, the Meaning of the word angel has been lost.

 

The Old Testament, which was written from works 4000 years previouly, gives us an idea of who the angels actually are.

 

The angels who of some came down and mated with the daughters of men, had all the characteristics of Flesh and blood.

 

For early man, The ANNUNAKI,NEPHILIM,WATHCERS, and ELOHIM would have been very impressive.

If you go to the SUMERIAN ONLINE ARTIFACT site, depictions of these "gods" show them with bird features, and wings.

Signifying they came form the skies.

 

The angels of the Bible, from my research leads me to beleive that they were the gods of an ancient past who came here, and established great cities and Temples and Pyramids.

 

Now, on the topic of Astral entites, which could be explained as Angels.

I have had direct experience with these beings.

And they are definitly real. Although they can take on various forms. And do at least it seems have an interest in our human affairs.

 

Neuroflux:hyper:

Could it be that during your research did you bother to pray and ask our Father to shed His light to you through our communion with the Holy Spirit. All knowledge resides with our Father in heaven.

 

Matt21 [22] And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[ughaibu]

Stanleyg: Do your bit for the community and ask god who hacked the site, please.

[TheBigDog]

Way before my 10 years of experience, Shamans have been communicating with "spirits" for 10,000 +

How?

Where is the 10,000 + year record of this?

 

Bill

[TheBigDog]

Other tribes drink it.

DMT is NOT orally active. This is because our stomach's contain MAO inhibitors which break down the DMT too fast, to let it work its magic.

But the natives say that in Trance state the SPIRITS took them too a part of the Jungle and showed them a Plant that contains MAO inhibitor Alkloids, and the SPIRITS showed them how to prepare a tea, which will allow the individual

to trip for a good 5 to 8 hours.

To accidentally discover, and understand this neuro process by these natives, is startling.

And they give sole credit to there spirits.

With all of the possibilities the story about the spirits showing the way is the one you choose to believe. I have faith in the capacity of humans to discover through trial and error even the most obscure mixtures and concoctions. And to pass down through word of mouth increadible stories about how it was actually discovered. Especially if they were not the one to discover it, and are creativly filling in the gaps. Compare this to the bible, with a formal written history, and all of the contraversy about what is real and what is symbolic. And you are telling me that a 10,000 year unwritten history is going to be more reliable? You buy the story of men learning science from voices heard within a hallucination?

 

You seem to like taking these drugs. It is so important to you that you want others to do it to. And you are hear to spread the word, to gain popular support for your cause. You front this with your talk about science, and acceptance, and that is another convenient way to gain popular support for your habit.

 

I am waiting for the science to come out. For the logical analysis to happen. Shall we begin?

 

You say that DMT is the key to the dream state, and that it makes us think and imagine better, and unlocks the secrets of the spirit world. And because it is naturally developed by the brain, it is only natural to boost the levels higher and see what happens. Well, you stomach produces HCl for the digestion of food. Perhaps we should drink HCl to improve the digestion process. After all it is natural.

 

You have lamented on other threads that you don't want to have to go over every little line you write. Well, welcome to Hypography. You cannot just thow up words and expect all of us to know which ones are the real ones, and which ones are the ones that are just you babbling nonsense. And if you don't like that assement, then take better care with your words. After all, you came to us to reach out for acceptance of your ideas. If you cannot adhere to the standards that we might ask for then take your drug show to a site full of the mushbrained who will believe anything you type because you spell some words correctly and let them hero worship you because you know how to make your own DMT.

 

I am giving you the opportunity to engage in real discussion of facts. Bring facts.

 

Bill

[infamous]

You buy the story of men learning science from voices heard within a hallucination?

It appears some people prefer dreams over reality, and weird dreams have nothing to do with science.

 

I am waiting for the science to come out. For the logical analysis to happen. Shall we begin?

I wouldn't be holding my breath BigDog.

 

Well, you stomach produces HCl for the digestion of food. Perhaps we should drink HCl to improve the digestion process. After all it is natural.

Good point BigDog; There is entirely to much honor given to the concept of NATURAL. Cyanide is also a naturally occuring substance...............???

 

I am giving you the opportunity to engage in real discussion of facts. Bring facts.

 

Bill

I fear the only fact this fellow is interested in is when and how he's going to get high again..............go figure...................Infy

[neuroflux]

Havent i already posted the research done by Dr.Callaway?

Havent i already mentioned Dr. Rick Strassmans Research?

Hasnt The John Hopkins University released positive information about pilsocybin?

HAvent i already stated how DMT works in the brain?

 

This isnt about getting high. Its about shedding the EGO of the Dominator soiciety that we live in, which you so elequntly show to be strong.

 

As far as it being 10,000 years old i quote:

 

"The practice of shamanism is derived from ancient teachings and is practised throughout the five continents of the planet. Although ancient, (it is estimated that shamanism may have originated over 10,000 years ago) its practice is also contemporary, surviving in areas such as Tibet, North & South America and within various African tribes."-Arizona healing tours.com

 

.".the ancestor of the god is the shaman himself, both historically, and phychologically. There were shamans before there were gods. The very earliest religious data we know from archeology show the dancing masked sorcerors or shamans of Lascaux, Trois Freres, and other Old Stone Age caves. The worldwide distribution of functionaries recognizable as shamans - in the Americas, north Eurasia, Africa Oceania, and south Asia, as well as ancient east and central Asia - testifies to their antiquity. The basis of all religion in both North and South American is the shaman or medicine man - as Boas long ago observed - so that the aboriginal New World, seen in its common essence, is a kind of ethnographic museum of the late Paleolithic-Mesolithic of Eurasia, whence came the American indian in very ancient times. Indian religious culture is of the same date and orogin as their material culture, and it is copiously documented."

_westen labarre

 

As well as in Anatolia, Turkey at the Catal Huyuk dig, were found shamanic images dating 6500,b.c.e.

 

Shamanism predates all religion, and this is a fact.

 

Here are some links supporting shamanism as the oldest form of religous thought.

 

http://www.llewellyn.com/bookstore/article.php?id=33

 

 

http://www.realneo.us/art-of-the-day-spitball-by-tony-smith/artist-of-the-day-the-shaman

reads.....

 

"This shaman experience depicted in cave art. For example, in the

20,000 year old Sanctuary of Le Trois Freres in Ariege, France, there are

three such depictions. One shows a dancing shaman wearing a buffalo robe and

headdress, another with a combination of buffalo and human features, and a

third of a dancing shaman with a beard and human legs, but with the features

of a number of animals, including reindeer, stag, owl, wolf and horse. (These

drawings are reproduced in Goodman, The Genesis Mystery, Time Books, 1983 @

231) "

 

It doesnt take a rocket science to see that shamanism is the oldest form of a recognition of the sacred. And true Shamanism is about the relationship beteen the spirit and the flesh.

The way of the shaman is the way of the Plant Queendom and the relationship it has with humanity.

 

This isnt about getting high. And poking fun of people who use entheogens just shows how solidified your EGO actually is.

I havent mentioned ONCE about how cool it is. And contrary to your post, I'm not here to get people stoned, or to gloat in my self.

It seems no matter what kind of proof that i post, in reference to the importance of DMT in our lives and as a means of addressing the original question,,,,

I dont use narcoitcs, i smoke grass occasionally, and i eat really good.

you seem to assume that i am a stoned out hippy, when in fact, i am highly educated human being. WHo has gone beyond and come back with a fantastic tale of meeting spirits in a world that manifests itself by ingesting a neurotransmitter from plants.

The fact that for 10000 years, shaman have been travelling and mapping this space, tells me that there is something important there to investigate.

Especially their claims that the DMT world is inhabited with angelic and demonic forces, that help and hinder the realm of the living.

 

StanleyG:

I do not worship the God of the Isrealites. I dont adhere to a religion that systematically destroyed whole cultures in their quest for world domination.

[infamous]

The fact that for 10000 years, shaman have been travelling and mapping this space, tells me that there is something important there to investigate.

Especially their claims that the DMT world is inhabited with angelic and demonic forces, that help and hinder the realm of the living.

 

You weren't doing to badly neuro...until you finished with this last paragraph. What scientific evidence do you have or can you furnish that will support that last sentence? I understand that you were careful to state; "their claims" but that does not relieve you of the responsibility to provide scientific evidence for making these claims. Judging from your previous material, and by your admitted use of this drug, you certainly agree with "their claims". So I ask, where is your scientific evidence for angelic and demonic forces. If you can't produce any, don't be surprised when you get reactions from our members that is not to your liking. My suggestion to you sir: Grin and bear it.........................Infy

[TheBigDog]

This isnt about getting high. And poking fun of people who use entheogens just shows how solidified your EGO actually is.

Thanks! I love my ego. I nuture it daily. And it is all about getting high. Putting your brain into a chemically unbalanced state for recreation is the very definition of getting high.

I havent mentioned ONCE about how cool it is. And contrary to your post, I'm not here to get people stoned, or to gloat in my self.

You may have never said "cool" but the bevy of other pleasant descriptives clearly state what it is you enjoy and promote.

It seems no matter what kind of proof that i post, in reference to the importance of DMT in our lives and as a means of addressing the original question,,,,

I'm sorry, was that the whole point? :shrug: :doh:

I dont use narcoitcs, i smoke grass occasionally, and i eat really good.

you seem to assume that i am a stoned out hippy, when in fact, i am highly educated human being. WHo has gone beyond and come back with a fantastic tale of meeting spirits in a world that manifests itself by ingesting a neurotransmitter from plants.

Or is that the point? No, you do not gloat in yourself. :hihi:

The fact that for 10000 years, shaman have been travelling and mapping this space, tells me that there is something important there to investigate.

Especially their claims that the DMT world is inhabited with angelic and demonic forces, that help and hinder the realm of the living.

The fact is that for 10000 years people have know how to get high. And when they do it they have fantastic visions like lucid dreams of the awake mind. So what. You cherry pick the accounts that support your notions. You call recreational usage important science. And you get offended when confronted. These drugs are supposed to elevate and enlighten yet you whine and complain at anyone who contradicts you as being closed minded. Have you used too much or me too little?

 

So here is the deal. Should there be research into these drugs? Yes. That means controlled experiments. Controlled dosages. Controlled environments. And above all - sober and objective observation. Anything else is purely recreational usage dressed up in one excuse or another; "I am a shaman practicing my ancient art"; "I am a spiritual explorer"; "I am exercising my right to free action"; "I am a depressed and hiding from reality that scares me" And no recreational usage has any scientific merit whatsoever.

 

In encouraging people to try DMT for themselves you are exacerbating the problem of recreational use. And the problems associated with recreational use create the political barriers to REAL scientific research. If you wanted scientific research you would in fact be against recreational use. But no, you are not for science, you are for getting high. And if it gains popular approval, well hell, it might become legal some day! And so here you are.

 

The name of this site is Hypography. It is not enthogens.com or hightimes.com or any other website dedicated to the purpose of the legalization of drugs. We are a community who enjoys science and debate and the company of like minded individuals. We are believers and non believers. We are all ages and from all walks of life. We live on all parts of the globe. We are highly educated specialists, educated generalists, and some at the beginning of their educational journey. And in speaking only on behalf of myself, I am very happy with how things are here. I do not need a relentless preacher of DMT any more than I need a relentless crusader saving my soul. And I do not want drug legalization to become the character of this forum any more than I want venomous snakes loose in my house. And I am going to work very hard to preserve the character of this forum from people who would change it for their own purposes.

 

Bill

[neuroflux]

Through science we can understand how, and why these molecules work in our brains.

Yet, there is no ther way of understanding this realm and its inhabitants other than experincing it for themselves.

I am fully supportive in reccomending a sitter with someone while they journey.

I do not think that this experince is meant for a clinical setting.

In fact, the difference between trypping by water and not is extremely interesting.

D M Turner writes about this in his "the essential psychedelic guide" book.

Is the the futuer of mankind a atomic mushroom or a antoher type of mushroom?

 

In 1953 the Wasson's went to the highlands of Mexico and found a woman shamness, named Maria Sabina, for the first time the sacred use of Mushrooms was finally brought to the attention of western thinkers.

Even life magazine picked up the story.

whether you like it or not, the history of entheogens is intristicaly woven in our past.

And i feel strongly in my heart, that something good is going to come of this, i know that some of it is hard to swallow, and yes alot of it leans to speculation, but the proof is on the cave walls, the burial sites, and temples.

Even on the walls of Egyptians, we find heiroglyphs of BLUE and RED mushrooms.

The fact that DMT is part of our complex brain function, the fact that the cells that protect our brain ,in the blood brain barrier become boats that ship the DMT across this barrier and the relation to our pineal gland, and mysticism, i feel demand further exploration.

And i hope that ome of you get the urgency of the message.

These molecules bring one face to face with the unkown.The reports of Shaman singing visions into exsistance, the healing properties of this experience, all lean to a knowledge of kife that we are only really beining to understand.

 

the Marrige of Science and mysticism is an important synery, and i hope that in the future they both can help support themselves in a balanced way.

And it would appear that the DMT tea plays acrucial role in the theology and cosmology of most of south America.

I understand how the things that i have stated seem far off and maybe even delusional, but i am stickingto my guns, and i know that the research supporting this is far greater than the proof rejecting it.

peace and light

neuroflux

[Boerseun]

Neuroflux:

 

Have you got anything other going for you except your fascination and, dare I say it, obsession with DMT?

 

DM Turner? You think we're idiots?

 

Come on.

 

Contribute something else than your drug habits.

[HappytheStripper]

I have a few angels .. heres one of them for you all to keep ..

 

 

xxxxxxx Ashley