Thinking about intelligent design(what Quran says?)

[phoenixbyrd]

Your right, it doesn't give any time table for creation. For a few thousand years before the Quran was written by man, people already believed the universe was of a certain age then.

[phoenixbyrd]

The bible doesn't directly say what age, but the text can and has been used to extrapolate an age.

[CerebralEcstasy]

The bible doesn't directly say what age, but the text can and has been used to extrapolate an age.

 

What it does say Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. There is no time frame given for this to have occurred.

 

So for people's who believe in the creationist account of how the heavens and earth were formed, there is no contradiction with science.

 

The place where people start to get confused, especially ones who support the young earth theory is found during the rest of the creation period where day and night were created etc.

 

They read the first verse, and then start counting from the fifth. Trying to derive the age of the earth from that point forward.

 

2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters. 3 And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.

/forums/images/smilies/banana_sign.gif

 

While most religions point out the faith aspect, the truth of the matter is that the bible must be scientifically accurate if God is it's Author. From the scriptures noted above, you can see the amount of things that occurred prior to God even claiming the first day was created.

 

Most religions will attempt to massage the scriptures in order to get them to agree with what their pastors interpret them as. Which is unfortunate, since this turns a lot of people off of religion in general, as they're tired of being lied to.

[Lancaster]

What it does say Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. There is no time frame given for this to have occurred.

 

So for people's who believe in the creationist account of how the heavens and earth were formed, there is no contradiction with science.

 

 

The contradiction with science is that there is no scientific evidence to show support of an all powerful creator.

 

While most religions point out the faith aspect, the truth of the matter is that the bible must be scientifically accurate if God is it's Author.

 

Not so. By his very nature, God can do whatever he wants. The Bible can contradict scientific evidence, say that Jesus had heat vision, and claim that the earth is two minutes old; it doesn't matter. The Christian God is omnipotent and nothing is beyond his power.

 

This is why it is so to prove that God does not exist, there is nothing scientific about him, and he can do anything.

[CerebralEcstasy]

The contradiction with science is that there is no scientific evidence to show support of an all powerful creator.

 

I read a book called the Philosophy of Science, it talked about how certain groups would find whatever evidence, or lack of evidence to prove their points. I think this is applicable in this situation.

 

To ones who do not believe in a God, there is no evidence. So while many argue about the lack of evidence - there may indeed be some, but people aren't willing to consider it as such.

 

Not so. By his very nature, God can do whatever he wants. The Bible can contradict scientific evidence, This is why it is so to prove that God does not exist, there is nothing scientific about him, and he can do anything.

 

Based on the information we have about God, we could conclude that he could do whatever he wants. However, it wouldn't be logical for the bible to be filled with faulty information - scientific or otherwise.

 

There has to be a measure of accuracy within the writing, in order for one to put any trust in the words.

 

The bible wouldn't hold much weight if it weren't able to stand up to dissection from many areas. This is why I say it must be accurate.

[Emre_1974tr]

104- On that day We will fold the heaven, like the folding of a book. Just as We initiated the first creation, We will revert it. This is Our promise. We will certainly fulfill it.

21-The Prophets, 104

 

I would like to bring an interesting point to your attention. In the verse it is said that God will return it to its former state. Therefore, to be able to understand the end of the universe, we have to go back to the first three chapters of our book where the beginning of Creation is described. The fact that they appear in the same sura is meaningful (The beginning is explained in the sura The Prophets; verse 30, in the same sura, verse 104, the end is explained).

 

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?

21-The Prophets, 30

 

47- With power did We construct Heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.

51-The Dispersing, 47

 

We deduce from the above two verses;

1- that the universe was separated from a whole, and

2- that the universe formed following this separation is expanding.

The extraordinary miracle in these verses of the Quran was examined in the first three chapters. Now if we may be allowed to go back to the verse we quoted in this chapter, if the universe is going to regress to its original state, then:

 

1- the expanding universe will have to contract, and

2- the expanding universe will return to its primordial unity.

 

Experts versed in astrophysics will take cognizance of the magnificence of this verse. We know today that the universe is expanding. We also know that this expansion is the consequence of the acceleration generated by the Big Bang. We are faced with two alternatives here. According to one of them, the expanding universe will spread out to a vast expanse, all the stars will have exhausted their energies, the temperature will fall and thus the end will be reached. Following the exhaustion of the energy of the stars and the coming to a standstill of all actions, all celestial bodies will break apart and escape from gravitational force. This is called the “Open Universe Model.” According

to a second alternative, the expanding universe will stop because of the mutual attraction of all bodies, and the universe will contract to return to its primordial state.

 

ONE MIRACLE AFTER ANOTHER

It seems that the Quran’s implication is inclined toward the second alternative. At a time when people believed that the earth stood on the horns of an ox or on a fish, the Quran’s description of the event was incredible. There is no way this fact could have been rendered from the scientific knowledge base of the day, or have been a product of fancy or flight of thought. The source of this knowledge is not scientific observation but God’s revelation. The verse under our scrutiny also gives an answer as to which of the two alternatives man should put faith in. The greatness of the Quran, which stated that the universe was created from the one primordial wholeness, that it expanded, and that it would shrink back -at a time when all scientific evidence was lacking- is understood better today with the advance of science and the discovery of the mystery of the universe.

 

The collapse of the universe is referred to as the “Closed Universe Model.” The power to realize this folding up is gravity. As we know, all matter is in mutual attraction. When something is thrown into the air, the object thrown cannot help falling back after some time because of gravity; matter that has scattered in every possible direction in space following the Big Bang will retrace its steps in a given time to be folded up. We must remember that at the time of the descent of the Quran, the notion of gravity did not exist and that it was to be known some one thousand years later, thanks to Newton’s discovery.

 

Once the expansion of the universe was established, scientists began to study whether the universe would continue to expand or come to a close by folding up. To this end, they tried to find out the critical density of matter in the universe and arrived at certain ratios that they called “Omega.” If the density in the universe is at a certain level, the process of folding up will begin before the scattering of matter into infinity...

 

Humans are born, live and die and eventually return to the dust of which they were made. The same thing holds true for beasts and plants. It appears that the law that governs all living creatures is also applicable in the case of the universe. In the verse we examined, this event is stressed with the word “revert.” Following are the verses in which this word is used.

 

27- And He is the One who first creates and then reverts it.

This is very easy for Him. And to Him belongs the most sublime similitude, in the heavens and the earth. And He is the Almighty, Wise.

30-The Romans, 27

 

34- Say: “Can any of your idols initiate creation, then revert it?” say “It is God who initiates the creation, and then reverts it. Then, how could you deviate?”

10-Jonah, 34

 

HEAVEN RENT ASUNDER AND THE RED ROSE

37- When the heaven will split asunder, and become rosy red like the dregs of anointing oil.

55-Gracious, 37

 

The Quran speaks of the color of heaven on the day the solar system comes to an end. Heaven’s “split asunder” is also mentioned in other verses of the Quran.

 

9- When the heaven split asunder.

77-The Emissaries, 9

 

16- When the heaven will crack and split asunder. That day it will be flimsy.

69-Incontestable, 16

 

I believe that these verses may be understood in two different ways. If we take heaven for the entire universe, one may think of the decay at the outer extremities of the universe in continuous expansion. (By this the decay in the vacuum structure of the universe may have been meant. However, I am not going to dwell on this long issue.) According to a second alternative, if we take heaven for the atmosphere of our earth, big earthquakes, activities on the surface of the earth will likely affect the atmosphere, which will be split asunder and the protective layer of the atmosphere will be peeled off. As a matter of fact, the atmosphere depends on the fine balance between the earth’s gravitational force and the movement of molecules in the atmosphere. Any alteration in this balance will likely affect the atmosphere. Either of these two alternatives, or both, for that matter, may have been meant by the verses.

 

SUDDEN ARRIVAL

187- They ask you about the Hour and when it will come to pass. Say, “The knowledge thereof is with my Lord. Only He reveals its time. Heavy it is, in the heavens and the earth. It will come to you suddenly.” They ask you as if you are well-informed of it. Say, “The knowledge thereof is with God. But most people do not know.”

7-The Purgatory, 187

 

The Quran says that the process of the end of the world and the universe will begin all of a sudden, at a time which even the Prophet does not know. According to the theory of relativity, the fastest motion in the universe belongs to light, the speed of which is not surpassed by anything. The data we obtain from light-emitting objects and the reflection of light are the limits of our understanding of the phenomena taking place in the universe. If information about the time the Hour will take place is to be transmitted at the speed of light, we can never be informed of it before some time has elapsed. For instance, if the sun explodes this very moment and the beginning of the end has come, we will be aware of it only after the lapse of eight and a half minutes.

 

The same holds true for other phenomena that will likely occur, causing the destruction of the universe. If the process in question has started at some point in the universe, we cannot be aware of it for some time. A series of phenomena will occur before we are conscious of it, up until the time we are suddenly caught by it.

 

1- When the inevitable comes to pass.

2- There can be no denying of its befalling.

3- It will lower some, and raise others.

4- When the earth will be shaken up.

56-The Inevitable, 1-4

 

The end of the universe and of the world is the most serious event next to its formation. Riches, reputations, situations, families, beauty, ugliness, joy, distress will be no more; the entire universe will be transformed into a small unit. Superiority will no longer be measured by

riches, possessions and high offices. Now, “superiority” will depend on the sort of life man has led. From the scenery of the end of the universe and the world described in the Quran, there are lessons to draw in this life of ours. All these are not for the mere sake of knowing. What is communicated has as its objective to move people and guide them to God. We must bear in mind the third verse of the 56th sura:

 

3- It will lower some, and raise others.

56-The Inevitable, 3

 

(Quranmiracles.com)

[phoenixbyrd]

The only problem is, you can't impart modern knowledge on a primtive people who knew of no such thing. Nor can you call into play invisible magical being's without firstly proving such exist.

 

The Quran isn't talking about modern big bang physics at all. Never has, never will. There was no possible way for people back then to concieve of these thing's. They had no prior experience, let alone education in modern physics nor the technological ability to even develop such theories and then for some odd reason decide to attribute natural processes to invisible beings they've never had the pleasure of shooting pool with and taking shots at the local bar.

[Emre_1974tr]

WE LIVE IN AN EXPANDING UNIVERSE

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47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it.

51-The Dispersing, 47

[Emre_1974tr]

THE UNIVERSE IN GASEOUS STATE

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11- Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”

41-Elucidated, 11

[Lancaster]

I read a book called the Philosophy of Science, it talked about how certain groups would find whatever evidence, or lack of evidence to prove their points. I think this is applicable in this situation.

 

To ones who do not believe in a God, there is no evidence. So while many argue about the lack of evidence - there may indeed be some, but people aren't willing to consider it as such.

 

I'd like to see some of this evidence, if it exists. If you've got it, you've managed to achieve what thousands of misinformed theologians could not.

 

 

 

 

Based on the information we have about God, we could conclude that he could do whatever he wants. However, it wouldn't be logical for the bible to be filled with faulty information - scientific or otherwise.

 

That doesn't matter. My point is that the Bible does not have to be logical. And it's already filled with faulty information, scientific and "otherwise." God is omnipotent, therefore he can defy logic and reason. It is all a matter of denial of scientific truth, the ability to take an enormous leap (over rational thought) to the world of faith.

 

There has to be a measure of accuracy within the writing, in order for one to put any trust in the words.

 

Some people believe that, billions of years ago, an alien came to Earth in an American passenger jet. He deposited the souls of humans around volcanoes and detonated hydrogen bombs around them. Their should clustered together and cause problems to this day. This religion is called Scientology, and it is all based on the writings of a man named L. Ron Hubbard.

 

These people put full trust in this man's writings. Is there any accuracy in them? No. But they believe it all the same. Just because some people believe something is true doesn't make it so.

 

 

 

The bible wouldn't hold much weight if it weren't able to stand up to dissection from many areas. This is why I say it must be accurate.

 

The Bible already has been picked apart from hundreds of different angles. I suggest you read The Skeptic's Bible for a taste of that.

[Turtle]

...ONE MIRACLE AFTER ANOTHER

It seems that the Quran’s implication is inclined toward the second alternative. At a time when people believed that the earth stood on the horns of an ox or on a fish, the Quran’s description of the event was incredible. There is no way this fact could have been rendered from the scientific knowledge base of the day, or have been a product of fancy or flight of thought.

 

Jules Verne's flight of fanciful thought well described submarines and SCUBA gear far before they existed. Your claim is unsubstantial by a single counter example. :hihi:

[phoenixbyrd]

The Quran also teach's us that the mountains were created to prevent earthquakes, that the moon give's off light, tells us the universe will go into a big crunch and it attributes this all to some invisible magical being that not a single living person has ever once seen nor has proof of. Has never had proof of for the entirety of the human race.

 

The Quran is not a modern day scientific textbook handed down to man from invisible boogeymen less then 2000 years ago.

 

There are many instances in ancient time's where the beginings of modern knowledge *almost* took root. Electricity, genetics, evolution, atomic theory, even rudimentary quantum physics. The only thing that squashed all of that was religion. People too scared to confront the truth of reality. People so blissfully ignorant that they'd rather hide in the arms of the oh so great unseen invisible magic people then deal with the real world.

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear phonixbyrid, Quran giving modern science datas and Quran giving datas of future too. Because it is from God.

 

You can find the black holes, pulsars and other miracle datas in Quran.

 

Regards.

[ughaibu]

At the beginning of his Metamorphoses, Ovid calls on the gods for inspiration, the result is that Ovid's Metamorphoses is as much a work inspired by god as the Bible or Koran are. If I were to post excerpts from Metamorphoses and claim that this was information about god or similar, how would you react? What would you think of me?

When you quote one of these books as if it were actually written by a being that has no physical presence on this planet, think about what you're doing and how others will react to you.

[phoenixbyrd]

Because it is from God.

 

No, I'm afraid it isn't from god. It was written by men of flesh and blood like you and me. Only those men were ignorant of how the universe really works. If the Quran were written by god, why would he say such things as mountains prevent earthquakes, when it's earthquakes that form mountains. Why would he say that the moon gives off light when it isn't luminescent at all. Amongst other things that the Quran has gotten wrong.

 

Why would the god of the Quran be real when there have been other gods worshipped long before the Quran was ever first concieved of. Long before there was ever monotheism of any form. You say it was written by god, you must prove first then that that is the truth. Pointing at certain vauge text's and then proclaiming modern day physics is talked of in them isn't proof enough. As I said, some of these concepts were thought of before by people well before the Quran was written. But it was religion that muddled and screwed up the theories and stopped us from furthering the development of them into a real modern scientific thought.

 

If the bible, the Quran, or any other religious text get's just ONE thing wrong. Then there is no way that it was written by an all knowing magical invisible diety. Is your god really that stupid that he thinks he created mountains to prevent earthquakes? Or isn't it more likely that man was that stupid to think so?

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear friend, No, you have got wrong datas about Quran.

 

İ am saying "Quran from God" , because i am saying this with prrofs. And only proofs can showing to "who are saying true?". Quran's mathematical proofs can show you this:

(Quran Miracles.)

 

And look at other your wrongs, you don't know to what Quran saying:

 

MOUNTAINS AS PEGS

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6- Have We not made the earth habitable?

7- And the mountains as pegs?

78-The Event, 6-7

 

Mountains are often mentioned in the Quran. The simile of pegs seems to be preternatural in the light of geological findings of the last century. The mountains we observe on the surface of the earth rest on immense strata that may be ten to fifteen times as deep as the portion remaining on the surface of the earth. For instance, the highest mountain on earth, whose peak attains an altitude of 9 km from the ground, possesses a substratum that goes about 125 km into the depths of the earth. For a peg to be able to fulfill its function, the length of the portion stuck in the earth is important. The same holds true for the mountain.

 

There also exist mountains rising from the bottom of seas that also possess substratum. These substrata support the visible portion of the mountains in accordance with the Archimedean principle. These substrata were unknown until a few centuries back, let alone during the time of the Prophet. The simile in the Quran is once again a miraculous statement.

 

FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS

In geology textbooks that have not been updated, information is not available about the role the mountains play, the role of stabilizing the crust of the earth. However, there are some publications on this issue.

 

The book entitled “Earth” is one of the many now on the market. Frank Press, author of this book, is the president of the Academy of Sciences, adviser to Jimmy Carter, ex-President of the USA. This author likens the mountains to wedges, the greater part of which remain underneath the surface of the earth. In this book, Dr. Press explains the functions of mountains, drawing special attention to their important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This information exactly matches the statement in the Quran:

 

31- “And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with them.”

21-The Prophets, 31

 

Actually, the crust of the earth floats on a liquid. This outermost layer of the earth extends 5 km from the surface. The depths of the mountain strata go as far down as 35 km. Thus, the mountains are sort of pegs driven into the earth. Just like the pegs used to stabilize a tent on the ground, so these pegs stabilize the crust of the earth. Mountains are the outcome of collisions between strata of the earth’s crust; the result of the encroachment of a given stratum on another one. These strata that go deeper and deeper enable the crust layers to

integrate.

 

Isostasy is defined in the Webster’s Third New Twentieth Century Dictionary as follows: “Isostasy is the general equilibrium in the earth’s crust, maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitate stress, and by the approximate equality in mass of each unit column of the earth from the surface to a depth of about 100 km.” At a time when mountains were viewed as mere prominences, the Quran’s reference to mountains’ strata invisible to the eye and their stabilization role leaves us in awe.

 

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SUN AND THE MOON

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5- It is He who made the sun to be a radiant and the moon to be a light ...

10-Jonah, 5

 

The sun as a nuclear reactor is our world’s source of light and heat. The quantity of radiation reaching our world from the sun that warms our world in the cold of space is two per billion of the sun’s total quantity of radiation. The moon is not a source of heat and light like the sun. This difference between the sun and the moon finds its description in the Quran, i.e., the sun’s light is expressed by the Arabic word “ziya” (radiant) and the moon’s light is expressed by the word “noor” (light). The word “ziya” meaning radiation has the connotation of light and heat, while “noor” does not have such a connotation. Other attributes of the sun in the Quran are similes such as “seraj” (torch) or “wahhaj” (lamp). Both “seraj” and “wahhaj” emit heat and light through the fire burning within them. The fact that such attributes are not used for the light of the moon shows how refined the

style of the Quran is.

 

AMENITIES OF THE SUN

The energy generated by the sun in just one second is equal to the energy that three billion power stations would generate on earth in a year. The world receives but two per billion parts of the overall radiation coming from the sun. The slightest decrease in this quantity would turn our world into a place no longer habitable by human beings, as ice age would reign. The distance of our world from the sun, the size of the sun, and the power of reactions within the sun are all calculated infinitesimally. We are part of these calculations. The slightest change in the figures would make life on earth impossible. The creation and the perpetuation of these critical values are the sine qua non of our lives. The sun rotates around its own axis while moving towards a particular destination; the earth, on the other hand, has a variety of movements; it rotates around its own axis, revolves about the sun, being dependent on it, and is affected by the moon. In all the rapid movements, our world changes all the time according to the position of the solar system and galaxies. None of the movements affects our position in relation to the sun nor puts an end to our life on earth.

 

Life requires carbon-based molecules. These are only generated between -20 degrees Celsius and +120 degrees Celsius. The range of temperatures is vast in the universe, the heat in stars rises to millions of degrees and falls until -273.15 degrees Celsius is reached. The bracket for the ideal medium for the formation of carbon-based molecules is just a thin slice, one per one hundred thousand of the existing heat differences. Had the world failed to conserve its existing heat and quit the bracket it is in, that would be the end of us. But our Creator is ever conscious of our actual needs and everything is controlled by Him.

 

2- ...He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each one runs for an appointed term. He regulates all affairs, and explains the signs in detail that you may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

13-The Thunder, 2

 

The sun, about 150 million kilometers distant from us, renders life on earth possible. An aircraft traveling at 1000 km/hour would have trouble covering this distance in seventeen years. The temperature in the center of the sun, whose surface temperature is six thousand degrees Celsius, is 15 million degrees Celsius. Not even on the surface of this incandescent gaseous sphere can life be imagined. But at a reasonable distance for us, it is our planet’s closest friend and source of life.

 

98- Your only god is God. There is no other god but He. His knowledge encompasses all things.

20-Ta-He, 98 82

 

 

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SUN AND THE MOON

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5- It is He who made the sun to be a radiant and the moon to be a light ...

10-Jonah, 5

 

The sun as a nuclear reactor is our world’s source of light and heat. The quantity of radiation reaching our world from the sun that warms our world in the cold of space is two per billion of the sun’s total quantity of radiation. The moon is not a source of heat and light like the sun. This difference between the sun and the moon finds its description in the Quran, i.e., the sun’s light is expressed by the Arabic word “ziya” (radiant) and the moon’s light is expressed by the word “noor” (light). The word “ziya” meaning radiation has the connotation of light and heat, while “noor” does not have such a connotation. Other attributes of the sun in the Quran are similes such as “seraj” (torch) or “wahhaj” (lamp). Both “seraj” and “wahhaj” emit heat and light through the fire burning within them. The fact that such attributes are not used for the light of the moon shows how refined the

style of the Quran is.

 

AMENITIES OF THE SUN

The energy generated by the sun in just one second is equal to the energy that three billion power stations would generate on earth in a year. The world receives but two per billion parts of the overall radiation coming from the sun. The slightest decrease in this quantity would turn our world into a place no longer habitable by human beings, as ice age would reign. The distance of our world from the sun, the size of the sun, and the power of reactions within the sun are all calculated infinitesimally. We are part of these calculations. The slightest change in the figures would make life on earth impossible. The creation and the perpetuation of these critical values are the sine qua non of our lives. The sun rotates around its own axis while moving towards a particular destination; the earth, on the other hand, has a variety of movements; it rotates around its own axis, revolves about the sun, being dependent on it, and is affected by the moon. In all the rapid movements, our world changes all the time according to the position of the solar system and galaxies. None of the movements affects our position in relation to the sun nor puts an end to our life on earth.

 

Life requires carbon-based molecules. These are only generated between -20 degrees Celsius and +120 degrees Celsius. The range of temperatures is vast in the universe, the heat in stars rises to millions of degrees and falls until -273.15 degrees Celsius is reached. The bracket for the ideal medium for the formation of carbon-based molecules is just a thin slice, one per one hundred thousand of the existing heat differences. Had the world failed to conserve its existing heat and quit the bracket it is in, that would be the end of us. But our Creator is ever conscious of our actual needs and everything is controlled by Him.

 

2- ...He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each one runs for an appointed term. He regulates all affairs, and explains the signs in detail that you may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

13-The Thunder, 2

 

The sun, about 150 million kilometers distant from us, renders life on earth possible. An aircraft traveling at 1000 km/hour would have trouble covering this distance in seventeen years. The temperature in the center of the sun, whose surface temperature is six thousand degrees Celsius, is 15 million degrees Celsius. Not even on the surface of this incandescent gaseous sphere can life be imagined. But at a reasonable distance for us, it is our planet’s closest friend and source of life.

 

98- Your only god is God. There is no other god but He. His knowledge encompasses all things.

20-Ta-He, 98 82

[phoenixbyrd]

LOL, it's cute how people can glean so much modern information from a three sentence vauge quote of the Quran. It almost boggles the mind as to why did we remained so ignorant and primitive all these years when the answers were already given to us by the invisible boogeyman!

 

This is almost as good as the vedic texts in which we see nuclear weapons and flying machines and space travel, and all that way before the Quran was ever written too!