Hypography Tokers

[Queso]

Yeah... Hypography is starting to have "problems" with drugs.

I don't like it one bit Tormod. :lightning

 

You started this thread!

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

On these forums, I've seen wavelengths intensify.

It's evident here that we crawl around a rock,

and plants reach toward the sun.

 

Some choose to induce,

others don't, and talk down to the ones that do.

 

It's a beautiful relationship we all have,

because regardless what you guys say

we are all learning, here.

And that is the point.

 

If you're worried about drugs, stop talking about them,

and talk about the science behind them

 

which is absolutely menacing.

[Queso]

"If you only knew all the love that i've found,

it's hard to keep my soul on the ground"

[infamous]

a lot of my best realizations have come when i am tripping. its annoying when people try to convince me that they are inadiquate for this reason.

Just who is trying to convince who around here???

 

 

 

 

 

who is to say what is authenitc?

Qualified Scientific investigation resulting in predictable repeatable results.........Infy

[Drip Curl Magic]

Qualified Scientific investigation resulting in predictable repeatable results.........Infy

 

 

I half heartedly agree and think your answer was kind of witty.

 

But I also half heartedly agree with tarantism.

 

Perhaps these scientific laws are only temporary. Maybe they're constantly changing, but we don't know it because of some weird quirk relating to how our minds being in tune with the universe.

 

Who really knows?

 

No one knows for sure.

 

There are many things that seem to work every single time, but you never know when that time will come when it no longer works.

 

just remember, no one knows for sure.

[infamous]

I half heartedly agree and think your answer was kind of witty.

Why....thank you sir, it was meant to be.

 

But I also half heartedly agree with tarantism.

 

Just remember, I did mention the term "Qualified"....................Infy

[TheFaithfulStone]

Drugs, like the poor, have always been, and will always be with us.

 

Infy is absolutely correct that no amount of pill-popping is going to make you a good scientist, and Orby is correct that no amount of science is going to show you the wonders he sees.

 

It's a western prejudice that altered states of consciousness are suspect - even Islam has the Sufi tradition, where you get "high" by spinning around a lot. Native Americans have peyote, etc. The Pacific Islands have kava-kava.

 

The idea that being clear-headed and rational is preferable to being spacey and stoned is a cultural value.

 

Personally, I agree with this value, and haven't taken any form of drug stronger than coffee in many years.

 

But it's a value.

 

Our shared value here is that the best form of "altered consciousness" is the "ah-ha!" moment, or the moment of clarity that comes from years of study and careful thought. However, it is also (widely, but not universally) held that even this form of intuitive understanding is inferior to the plodding, deliberate, rational understanding of the physical world through the scientific method. As a corollary to point 1, those "eureka" moments are most valuable when they enable the further pursuit of knowledge through method 2.

 

As for whether this makes drugs "stupid" I think it's a matter of course! If you believe that the best and most valuable way of knowing is through relentless scientific experimentation, then anyone who things otherwise is almost stupid by definition.

 

For example - it is perfectly possible to learn to read in a mirror. But what if that was the only way that a person knew how to read? If you saw someone holding a book up to a mirror and then reading it, wouldn't you think they were being incredibly dumb? Wouldn't they think the same thing about you if they saw you reading your book without the mirror? "But then anybody can just read right over you shoulder!" they might object.

 

Different ways of approaching the world do not, objectively, mean that one is inferior to the other, although to practitioners of those ways, any other way is subjectively inferior.

 

Now, my belief is that science offers the best hope for human flourishing. (There is evidence on both sides of that argument I think. Science never committed pogroms, but then, medieval christianity didn't invent the atom bomb.) But I can't just discount Faith as a way of knowing, as a framework in which people approach knowledge, as an epistemology.

 

Science is an empirical, rational, phenomenalogical epistemology.

 

Getting stoned is romantic, emotional, and intuitive.

 

It's difficult to say without qualification that one is better than the other.

 

It's not difficult to say that this is a site about science, and pushing LSD awareness here is kind of like walking into a Baptist church and talking about Allah or Buddha.

 

The point? There is no "correct" way of knowing everything. If Orby feels likes he's one with the universe when he's tripping, then no amount of arguing about the biochemical effects of acid is going to convince him otherwise - you're arguing Russian politics with someone from Zimbabwe in Cantonese.

 

As a cultural or individual problem, finding a balance between different ways of knowing is compelling (if you would like to subscribe to more than one) as a scientific problem, well, it's just... stupid.

 

TFS

[Loricybin]

just being honest.

actually, i'd probably say something more like #3.

 

but i usually stray from tobacco. it causes much more physical damage than it's really worth.

[Boerseun]

Science is an empirical, rational, phenomenalogical epistemology.

Yes - but try to say it really fast.

 

Good post, good points. But the point we're making is that there are outlets out there to sing the praises of drugs, to post incoherently while being stoned, to discuss your last trip etc.

 

It's simply not here.

 

You're right - it is kinda like discussing Russian politics in Zimbabwe in Cantonese when you're doing the above at Hypo. In that analogy, Hypo is Zimbabwe, and we'd like to discuss Zimbabwean politics in Shona, the language spoken in Zimbabwe. (Forget for a second that Zimbabwean politics is a nuthouse - I was just adding to TFS's analogy - he picked Zim, not me!:confused:)

[Michaelangelica]

I don't smoke anything but was reluctant to make the vote in a judgemental way.

What (and who?) people smoke is their own business.

[infamous]

I don't smoke anything but was reluctant to make the vote in a judgemental way.

What (and who?) people smoke is their own business.

Absolutely, and likewise, what we allow people to extoll the virtues of here at Hypography is our business. Discussing the scientific data about illicit chemicals is one thing, it is quite another to glorify their use. It is also very distasteful for any member to post in our forums while under the influence of any mind altering compound. Webster defines the word Sober as: temperate, serious, sedate, reasonable, and IMHO, the term reasonable should be the byword of the scientific format here at Hypography.........................Infy

[Tarantism]

infy, its important that you know that i wasnt pointing fingers, but rather mentioning something that i see in my life. many of the people i meet feel much differently about me after they find out that i do drugs. its apparent in their respective energy changes. they seem more cautious, more reserved, and they are more prone to take what i say with "a grain of salt."

 

and to say that what i say is not qualified reminds me of my mom. i have been there. i have seen it, and nobody will ever convince me that what i see and what i think isnt a real as anything else. "you create the reason for your existance". everything is perception. based on my experiences i dont see too many problems with the psychedelic drugs and marijuana. but that is just my experience, and some are irresponsable and quite frankly idiotic with the way they handle their minds and themselves. when these people come in contact with drugs the consiquences can be horrible. but i only draw from my own experience, taking stoies i hear of others who are having a worse time as caution and as tips. i learn from the collective and grow, i use my critical thinking skills to evaluate every experience and idea as best i can, just like anyone else. i handle myself well, others may not, i dont care.

 

Sean, that is unfortunite about your health. i wasnt challenging weather or not the problems were related to marijunana smoking, but rather i was curious if that was the case.

 

in my life, sciecne and drugs coexist quite well. in others lives they may or may not. some people want these things to stay seperate, kinda like meditation and drugs. thats cool, i dont care. however, i think that we should be able to discuss the scientific aspects as Orb said. there are many interesting topics in this feild, including but not limited to shamanism, and the speculations of Dr. Rick Strassman, PhD, and Terrence McKenna.

 

i agree that trip reports are unnessesary to post and pollute to forums.

[pgrmdave]

See, the problem is that things like Shamanism are, in my mind, not related to science. It doesn't appear to follow the scientific meathod and standards of reproducable controlled experiments. Shamanism is a type of religion, and, just like any other religion, is not scientific.

[infamous]

infy, its important that you know that i wasnt pointing fingers, but rather mentioning something that i see in my life.

I didn't assume you were pointing fingers tarantism.

 

and to say that what i say is not qualified reminds me of my mom.i agree that trip reports are unnessesary to post and pollute to forums.

Please read through the post again Tarantism, I said nothing about your personal qualifications. The point is this; To diagnosis an illness, one needs the services of a qualified physician. To understand the latest theory regarding quantum physics, one needs to have a visit with someone dedicated to that field of study. Expecting to gain good information from someone on a chemically induced trip will get you little more than dribble. All scientific experimentation requires observations made by someone unaffected by the experiment itself. IMHO it's not likely that someone going through the trip has the ability to separate fact from fiction? Where is the science with that sort of experiment?..........................Infy

[CraigD]

See, the problem is that things like Shamanism are, in my mind, not related to science. It doesn't appear to follow the scientific meathod and standards of reproducable controlled experiments. Shamanism is a type of religion, and, just like any other religion, is not scientific.

So, speaking about Shamanism, or Christianity, can be examples of the (admittedly “soft”) sciences of Anthropology or History, while speaking in a Shamanistic of Christian manner is preaching.

 

Hypography is for the former, not the latter.

[Tormod]

So, speaking about Shamanism, or Christianity, can examples of the (admittedly “soft”) sciences of Anthropology or History, while speaking in a Shamanistic of Christian manner is preaching.

 

Hypography is for the former, not the latter.

 

Touche.

[CraigD]

All scientific experimentation requires observations made by someone unaffected by the experiment itself.

Although I agree that some step in a well-designed series of scientific experiments requires careful controls such as blinding, which require unaffected observers, it’s ahistorical, particularly in the field of Pharmacology, to conclude that all experiments in such a series do.

 

One of the most famous such experiments was LSD inventor Albert Hoffman’s 1943 ”bicycle day” experiment, in which he intentionally ingested a dose of LSD in an attempt to reproduce the effects of an accidental ingestion that occurred several days earlier.

 

Because Hoffman and other physicians and pharmacologists have sound understandings of what they are doing, I don’t consider them reckless. They are, however, undeniable self-experimenters.

 

A significant question is: is it appropriate for is a non-professional, non-PhD to conduct such self experimentation, and if so, with what substances, under what circumstances, and following what procedures and safeguards?

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Smoking herb everyday is dangerous because you WILL have a higher risk of developing heart and lung problems. Sure, it's nowhere NEAR as bad as smoking cigarettes, but realistically, it IS still SMOKE and it DOES contain chemicals that will harm you.

For all of the health Nazis out there -sugar can cause obesity and all of the health problems that go with it ,diesel exhaust causes cancer: tasty blackened meat causes cancer: salt causes high blood pressure: welding fumes cause cancer, "black lung", and emphesima: chemicals in new cars, carpets, and even paint can kill you too!

Everything out there is "dangerous" to your health and welfare there isn't one thing that you can name that won't cause you harm if taken to an extreme....

Incidently I no longer "toke"...but that doesn't mean that it should be my or anyone elses decission as to how a person decides to live...it's their decission to make for themselves and their responcibility to accept and deal with the consequences. What is needed is to teach responcibility and consequences to our youth so that they can make an informed decission for themselves when the time comes for them to decide.