Who killed the electric Car

[LiquidAlchemist]

I just saw this movie a few days ago and thought it was excellent. I thought the movie really put the spotlight on how the Oil Companies of the World have had such a strong influence on America and how much of a strong hold they have on us and even our Government.

Anyway, I'm just curious to know what your opoions are on the movie? Do you agree on who is Guilty and who is not Gulty on killing what could have been the wave of the future for transportation?

I strongly agree with how much opposition they show toward oil companies in this movie. The fact that these people make 55,000+ every minute from shooting this stuff from the ground is really sickening (plus the fact that they do what it takes to denounce the existence of Global Warming is worse.)

[TheBigDog]

The electric car is dead because they suck when compared to a regular car. If they were practical they would be around. They are not practical, so they are not around.

 

Question for you...

 

Where does the electricity come from that charges an electric car?

 

Bill

[infamous]

;) :camera: :hihi: :ud: :D :D Excellent point BigDog, and BTW; Electricity looses much of it's energy just in the transmission of it from the power station to your home. I vote for bio-diesel or maybe the hydrogen fuel cell. Either method is better than pluging your car into a houshold outlet,.........IMHO..............Infy

[CraigD]

I just saw this movie a few days ago and thought it was excellent. I thought the movie really put the spotlight on how the Oil Companies of the World have had such a strong influence on America and how much of a strong hold they have on us and even our Government.

Anyway, I'm just curious to know what your opoions are on the movie? Do you agree on who is Guilty and who is not Gulty on killing what could have been the wave of the future for transportation?

I’ve been meaning to see this movie since I noticed it in a nearby theatre – it’s well reviewed, and said to present a good summary of the “rise and fall” of zero-emission vehicles in the 1990s, especially with regards to California’s “2% by the year 1998” initiative. I haven’t yet, so can’t give a first-hand opinion.

I strongly agree with how much opposition they show toward oil companies in this movie. The fact that these people make 55,000+ every minute from shooting this stuff from the ground is really sickening (plus the fact that they do what it takes to denounce the existence of Global Warming is worse.)

Unfortunately, the manipulation of science to promote commercial ventures is not confined to energy companies – nearly every industry, from fast food to pharmacology, appears to tend toward the ethic of “it’s only unethical if you get caught”. This likely illustrates an ingrained property of human nature, thought that’s a topic for another thread.

The electric car is dead because they suck when compared to a regular car. If they were practical they would be around. They are not practical, so they are not around.

That’s certainly one of the main explanations given, but fails to explain some objective data, such as the refusal of GM to allow the purchase of leased EV1s when the program was halted in 2003.

Where does the electricity come from that charges an electric car?

For a small introduction, the electricity comes from existing household electric utilities – these cars are just plugged into a 110 or 220 V outlet. In the case of an EV1, via a bulky “stay at home” unit that allowed the car to be charged using an inductive “paddle” rather than a conventional plug.

 

One should note that much of the popular and political enthusiasm for electric cars has to do with their potential to improve urban air quality, rather than their ability to be charged by electricity from a flexible variety of generation sources.

 

I’m skeptical of conspiracy theories. It appears that, most of the time, business decisions are driven by the desire of company leaders to maximize profits (although these decisions are sometimes spectacularly wrong). However, the failure of ZEVs to gain even a modest market foothold in the US, despite government support and popular interest, deserves serious public discussion and analysis. If “Who Killed the Electric Car” can promote this, it’s done a public service, and should not be dismissed as a “crank documentary”.

[pgrmdave]

Would an electric car really save energy? Would it really save fossil fuels from being burned? Or is the fuel cost of producing the electricity for the car greater than the fuel cost of running a gas powered car? It seems to me that you aren't actually saving any energy, but I don't have any hard numbers.

[Zythryn]

Would an electric car really save energy?

 

As for after it has been built, yes. At least in the case of the Tesla model coming out next year. For some hard numbers see http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/energy_efficiency.php or for another explaination see http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=8#more-8

 

The batteries are recyclable and last for 100,000 miles.

 

No motor oil or other fluids are consumed. The electricity, in my case, will come from solar cells and the standard electric grid.

 

Aside from the enviornment, my primary interest in this company is getting off of the oil addiction. I figure if this tech becomes common we can eliminate mideast oil which would be a major plus to our economy IMHO.

 

edit-I don't know if the construction of the vehicle costs more energy than constructing other vehicles, good question though.

[TheFaithfulStone]

I figure if this tech becomes common we can eliminate mideast oil which would be a major plus to our economy IMHO.

 

Not to mention our foreign policy.

 

Oil? Pshaw!

 

TFS

[Erasmus00]

The electric car is dead because they suck when compared to a regular car. If they were practical they would be around. They are not practical, so they are not around.

 

Question for you...

 

Where does the electricity come from that charges an electric car?

 

Keep in mind that people that leased prototype EV1s from GM were not allowed to purchase them when they ended the program in 2003. Many people did in fact want to purchase the cars. What specifically do you mean when you claim they sucked? Do you have numbers for the cars range, or max acceleration?

 

Also, keep in mind the advantage to the electric car isn't necessarily reducing oil consumption but cleaning up the air quality in cities.

-Will

[Zythryn]

Keep in mind that people that leased prototype EV1s from GM were not allowed to purchase them when they ended the program in 2003. Many people did in fact want to purchase the cars. What specifically do you mean when you claim they sucked? Do you have numbers for the cars range, or max acceleration?

 

Also, keep in mind the advantage to the electric car isn't necessarily reducing oil consumption but cleaning up the air quality in cities.

-Will

 

 

Not to speak for BD, however the range as I recall was 80-100 miles?

I was never aware that the EV1 existed until this movie. If it were offered now with those stats, I would buy one in a second. However, since I am married my wife would keep a longer range vehicle so we could use the EV1 for around town and the other car for longer trips.

 

I am not sure about the top speed and acceleration of the EV1?

 

Luckily, battery tech has improved and I expect will continue to improve. The Tesla has a range of 250 between charges which is much closer to the range of gas filled vehicles. Still couldn't take it across country, but good enough (I think/hope) to catch on.

 

And, since the Tesla can beat a porsche in a 0-60 contest it seems performance is no longer an issue;)

[CraigD]

Not to speak for BD, however the range as I recall was 80-100 miles?

…

I am not sure about the top speed and acceleration of the EV1?

The wikipedia article “EV1” has a pretty good summary of the performance and history of the EV1.

 

Basically, it was limited by it’s single speed transmission to a top speed of about 80 MPH. It’s 0-60 time was about 8 sec.

 

Changing the fixed gear ratio allowed a modified EV1 prototype to set a land speed record for production electric vehicles of 183 MPH, using the same engine, battery, body and other parts as a regular production EV1.

 

Their range was limited – from 50-75 Miles with the first generation lead-acid batteries, to 75-150 with the last-generation NiMHs.

[Zythryn]

I would love to see what it would be now with Lithium-ion batteries.

I am really surprised at the lack of activity of the major car companies with the tesla motors upstart gearing to break into the market.

[CraigD]

I would love to see what it [the EV1] would be now with Lithium-ion batteries.

Companies such as Hymotion are selling Li-Ion batteries for a limited number of gas/electric hybrid now.

I am really surprised at the lack of activity of the major car companies with the tesla motors upstart gearing to break into the market.

I’ve a suspicion that, even with recent improvements in EV technology, they’ll continue to have little market success, with the possible exception of a small, high-performance nitch.

 

My humble prediction is that “plug-in hybrid electric vehicles” (PHEVs) – production gas/electric hybrid vehicles with minor modifications to their wiring and power control systems – such as after-market conversions of the Toyota Prius by companies such as Hymotion and user groups such as CalCars – will in the next few years be sold as factory options by manufacturers (These manufacturer’s statements appear to support my prediciton). These vehicles can be operated as 100% electric vehicles for short range commuting, drawing nearly all of their energy from the owners’ home electric supply, or using their normal gas and electric engines for long trips, combining the best features of both modes of operation.

[Zythryn]

My humble prediction is that “plug-in hybrid electric vehicles” (PHEVs) – production gas/electric hybrid vehicles with minor modifications to their wiring and power control systems – such as after-market conversions of the Toyota Prius by companies such as Hymotion and user groups such as CalCars – will in the next few years be sold as factory options by manufacturers (

 

Very interesting. I had not considered that possibility. I would agree with you.

However, with a hybrid system you still require the inefficient (relatively) combustion motor which a pure electric avoids. My guess is that the added weight and maintanance would cost more time and money (over the car's lifespan) than a pure electric motor.

 

Of course, the next couple of generations of electric vehicles may suffer from higher price as the technology is relatively new. So it should be interesting to see how the two markets pan out over the next few years.

[TheBigDog]

Keep in mind that people that leased prototype EV1s from GM were not allowed to purchase them when they ended the program in 2003. Many people did in fact want to purchase the cars. What specifically do you mean when you claim they sucked? Do you have numbers for the cars range, or max acceleration?

 

Also, keep in mind the advantage to the electric car isn't necessarily reducing oil consumption but cleaning up the air quality in cities.

-Will

The cost of the 1100 cars produced came to $900,000 each when the R&D costs exclusive to that vehicle were included. Only NASA could be impressed with their performance for that price. And in the end they were never intended for private ownership. They were a prototype loaned out to the public at a loss. When the line got cancelled to stop the cash bleeding the world cried foul. To have sold the cars to the public would have required GM to maintain spare parts for these engineering abortions for ten years. Even if the actual cost of manufacturing each vehicle was only estimated at $80,000 each, keeping a network of parts, supplying training, and the other things that are required by the federal, CA and AZ governments would have cost GM millions more to make a hundred or so customers stay happy. They did the smart thing and cut their losses. If they had really been smart they would never have gone past prototype. The cars sucked.

 

The first thing you need to see to drive automobile technology is a viable racing circuit. That is what drives auto technology, competition on the track. Want to see fuel economy improve? Wait for F1 or NASCAR to limit fuel so cars need to get 20 mpg. When F1 outlawed turbo chargers everyone thought it would kill them. Within a couple of years the cars were faster than ever naturally asperated. When you see Hybrid racing and Electric racing that is being done with real budgets you will finally see the technology become mainstream enough to become commercially viable.

 

Bill

[Zythryn]

I agree with you Bill. GM would have continued to bleed money if they had allowed anyone to keep their EV1s.

 

I am just hoping they didn't toss out what they learned so the next generation is better.

 

Personally I like Saturns and have written Saturn telling them I will be buying an electric car in 2008. I told them I would like it to be a Saturn, but if they don't have one it will be a Tesla.

 

Wrote Toyota too (since they had the Rav4-EV) and told them I was buying an EV in 2008 and if they had one on the market it would be in the running.

 

Although I don't think we will see an EV on the racing circuit (unless the race is under 225 miles) I do think they will become viable.

[apeweek]

...Electricity looses much of it's energy just in the transmission of it from the power station to your home. I vote for bio-diesel or maybe the hydrogen fuel cell. Either method is better than pluging your car into a houshold outlet,.........IMHO..............Infy

 

Efficiency is the EV's strongest point.

 

It's gasoline that loses most of its efficiency, not electricity. The electric grid is 95% efficient. Battery storage is 88% efficient. Electric traction motors are 95% efficient, and transmissionless EVs get most of that power right to the road.

 

Gasoline, on the other hand, must be drilled for, pumped, transported, and refined. All these steps use energy, and reduce the overall efficiency of the fuel. When the gas arrives at your car, it is burned in a 25% efficient gas engine, which then loses even more efficiency due to idling, braking, and running outside of its optimum powerband. Typically, under 10% of gasoline's energy makes it to the road.

 

I'm all for biodeisel and hydrogen, but if those fuels burn in the same inefficient ICE, there is no efficiency improvement. Fuel cell cars are EVs, but the energy is stored in hydrogen instead of a battery. Unfortunately, batteries are 88% efficient, and fuel cells are maybe 50% efficient. So when you use electricity to extract hyrogen, you have wasted energy that could be more efficiently stored in a battery.

[apeweek]

The cost of the 1100 cars produced came to $900,000 each when the R&D costs exclusive to that vehicle were included. ...

...The first thing you need to see to drive automobile technology is a viable racing circuit.

Bill

 

Of course, a large percentage of that money GM says they spent on the EV1 wasn't their money. It was government money - our tax dollars given to automakers to incentivize EV development. I also wouldn't be surprised if that budget included the money GM spent to lobby against the EV mandate they wanted killed.

 

For EV drag racing, look at the NEDRA website, nedra.com.