What do we gain by having a vote?

[coberst]

"What do we gain by having a vote?"

 

It seems to me that what we gain depends upon what we invest. If the vote is not accompanied by an investment of time and intellect directed at comprehending our self and our world then the vote becomes somewhat like our vote as to what is the best football team, ours or theirs.

 

Because our citizens invest little of themselves into our democracy it is a shallow popularity poll. Those who run the country give us these political teams that we can choose one or the other to be ‘our team’ and we can battle ‘their team’ and shout and laugh and rage at one another all to no avail because those who run the show use all this just to keep us happy with ‘bread and circus’.

 

I think that our (US) democracy is a shallow popularity poll. What do you think?

[InfiniteNow]

Interesting thoughts, but I would counter, are not all votes popularity polls? I mean, even if I'm voting on qualification and merit, I am still voting for the one I see rising above the rest... aka... the most popular.

 

I might pose an alternate question, how do we best avoid the pitfalls of emotional manipulation as are often used in the electoral process?

[Zythryn]

I might pose an alternate question, how do we best avoid the pitfalls of emotional manipulation as are often used in the electoral process?

 

The only way I can see would be if a large enough group of people always voted against the side that tried to use emotional manipulation:naughty: .

 

I don't see that happening:(

 

However, how about this: The only money that can be used for campaigning is granted by the government, no party specific donations allowed. The government doles out X dollars to each canidate and that is all they get.

 

If a side is found cheating, they forfeit :)

[coberst]

Information is in the form of fragments and must be gathered together into a coherent package before it can prove useful in comprehending what the world is about. Only a sophisticated intellect can provide the means for such a task.

 

I am not talking about the practical aspects of voting and gathering information. I am talking about asking of oneself the question "How can I prepare myself to become a more sophisticated thinker and thus a better citizen?"

 

I think that public policy should be a vital concern for all citizens. Past generations have left us this legacy and it is our responsibility to pass it on to the next generation in as good or better shape than when we received it.

[hallenrm]

Dear Coberst, it requires much much more investment then an ordinary citizen can afford at present. Have you thought about the cost of acquisition of true knowledge about all the candidates aspiring for your vote.

 

Let's face it, we all do what is most convenient and economical for us in the short term. :lol:

[coberst]

Dear Coberst, it requires much much more investment then an ordinary citizen can afford at present. Have you thought about the cost of acquisition of true knowledge about all the candidates aspiring for your vote.

 

Let's face it, we all do what is most convenient and economical for us in the short term. :lol:

 

I am not speaking to the millions of practical aspects of all matters; I am speaking about the ability to make good judgments in all matters.

 

The ability to make good judgments is an art and a science and one can learn such things and thus become a more sophisticated thinker and judger. My suggestion is very similar to the give a guy a fish story.

[hallenrm]

In essence you are talking of really educating the masses. All I can say is that in the present circumstances it is a distant pleasant dream!

[TheFaithfulStone]

However, how about this: The only money that can be used for campaigning is granted by the government, no party specific donations allowed. The government doles out X dollars to each canidate and that is all they get.

 

Right, well, how is the government body that does this selected? Appointed by the president? Elected? Don't both of those scenarios lead to a body that favors one party over the other?

 

They give everybody in an election equal funding? Does that mean people from the Constitution Party and the Greens get money? Do I want my tax dollars paying for those crazies to run what only barely qualifies as "campaigns?"

 

The whole "government funded" election thing seems like it's even more open to corruption and fraud than the standard fraudulent corrupt election.

 

TFS

[α CMa]

"What do we gain by having a vote?"

 

It seems to me that what we gain depends upon what we invest. If the vote is not accompanied by an investment of time and intellect directed at comprehending our self and our world then the vote becomes somewhat like our vote as to what is the best football team, ours or theirs.

 

Because our citizens invest little of themselves into our democracy it is a shallow popularity poll. Those who run the country give us these political teams that we can choose one or the other to be ‘our team’ and we can battle ‘their team’ and shout and laugh and rage at one another all to no avail because those who run the show use all this just to keep us happy with ‘bread and circus’.

 

I think that our (US) democracy is a shallow popularity poll. What do you think?

oh! god! i agree with you on that one. the people need to spend that time on educating themselves on issues that affect them and the world.

[InfiniteNow]

What you speak of Coberst implies little or no obstancles in the way of meeting our basic survival needs of food and shelter. Your dream of ensuring education and understanding before engaging in the vote, if our more basic needs of feeding ourselves and our families and protection are not already satisfied, is a bit more of a pipe dream than a self-actualized one.

 

I simply cannot spend 12 hours a day researching each candidates background, voting record, statements of purpose, and seeing how each aligns with my own beliefs, doing a cost/benefit analysis and voting according to this when I am spending 19 hours of each day working the fields, tending the dishes, flipping the burgers, and providing at least minimal attention to my offspring.

 

Perhaps it is a self-reinforcing cycle... that we elect individuals who cannot provide us with the basic needs of food and shelter because we are too busy providing ourselves with food and shelter so we either do not vote at all or make poor choices as a populace.

 

Wow... not very succint, huh? Sorry about that. In sum,

 

It's a good idea to educate ourselves and those around us to understand and make better choices, however, sometimes there are higher priorities to which we must attend preventing us from doing so.

 

Do you perhaps have a way to circumvent the basic needs of food and shelter, such that we feasibly could engange in such time consuming growth to our understanding?

 

 

Cheers. :hihi:

[ughaibu]

As politics is based on divisive ideologies, I'd prefer to see governments kept as seperate from politics as (I'd like to see them) seperate from religion.

[coberst]

InfiniteNow

 

 

 

Abraham Maslow defined a hierarchy of needs to be:

1) Biological and Physiological (water, food, shelter, air, sex, etc.)

2) Safety (security, law and order, stability, etc.)

3) Belonging and love (family, affection, community, etc.)

4) Esteem (self-esteem, independence, prestige, achievement, etc.)

5) Self-Actualization (self-fulfillment, personal growth, realizing personal potential, etc.)

 

This hierarchy made us conscious of the obvious fact that we did not fret about the absence of self-esteem if we did not already have security nor did we worry about security if we did not have water to drink or air to breath.

 

The pinnacle of needs Maslow labeled S-A (Self-Actualization). In “The Farther Reaches of Human Nature” 1971, Maslow speaks of these needs and he apparently (as far as I know) introduced this new concept S-A as in “mid-stream rather than ready for formulation into a final version”.

 

We all, of course, need food and shelter before we can give serious consideration to the needs Maslow places on his list. My suggestion is regarding the pinnacle of needs that Maslow lables as S-A (Self-Actualization).

 

It all depends upon how well we can satisfy our more basic needs and how much we value the less basic but nevertheless the needs that many people feel. There is a season for all things I guess and it depends on many things and our value system is one of them.

[coberst]

In essence you are talking of really educating the masses. All I can say is that in the present circumstances it is a distant pleasant dream!

 

I am not talking about educating the masses. I am really talking about each person taking up the process of self-actualization through the process of self-learning after all schooling is complete.

[InfiniteNow]

Thank you for the reply coberst, but I must admit to not fully understanding how it is applicable to my point, which is basically that there are far too many people right now stuck at the baser levels of Maslow's pyramid for them to worry about such issues as understanding the candidates.

[coberst]

Thank you for the reply coberst, but I must admit to not fully understanding how it is applicable to my point, which is basically that there are far too many people right now stuck at the baser levels of Maslow's pyramid for them to worry about such issues as understanding the candidates.

 

Institutionalized education prepares us to become workers capable of supporting our self and our family. After schooling is finished we have many responsibilities focused primarily around job and family. But this period is one where our natural curiosity is still alive and wherein it is necessary to begin the process of learning those matters that were not part of institutional education.

 

This twenty year period does not generally leave a great deal of time for self-actualizing learning but it is necessary to keep curiosity alive and to build a foundation of basic intellectual needs and to discover our intellectual talents. I think that this period is vital; without careful utilization of this period we will have little curiosity or caring for intellectual matters later in life when we could be productively engaged in self-actualization through self-learning.

 

I suspect that if the young person does not take careful advantage of these years immediately following the completion of schooling they will have seriously threatened any significant intellectual growth following mid life because curiosity and caring will have atrophied.

[InfiniteNow]

Okay, I'm no dentist, and getting a straight answer here is a bit like pulling teeth...

 

Your points are again valid, but tangential to the issue as I see it. However, it is a thread created by you, so perhaps I am completely missing your point and you can clarify for me?

 

Right now, I hear you saying "It's really great if people want to learn and if they spend time understanding the candidate before they vote and if they keep the curiosity of youth." What I guess I'm missing is your question, but I'm a bit of a moron sometimes, and appreciate your gentle guidance toward the goal your path approaches.

 

 

Cheers. :)

[coberst]

InfiniteNow

 

Perhaps we should just leave well enough alone.