Electric cars for the WIN, or not?

[Zythryn]

In a number of threads and forums I have seen posts from people that refuse to entertain the idea of electric cars.

 

I am curious if anyone here fits in that category.

 

Think of it in this hypothetical framework, would you drive an electric car if:

 

A) From 'well to road' it produces much less pollution and no pollution at the road end of things.

 

:lol: It looks like any other car (no oversized golf cart styling).

 

C) It is as safe or safer than any other car.

 

D) It performs better than similarily priced ICE (internal combustion engine) cars.

 

E) Cost of maintaining it is lower than and ICE car.

 

F) Initial cost is the same as an ICE with similar performance/profile.

 

If, assuming all that you still say no, I would be interested in your thoughts.

 

Benifits I see are both enviornmental, economic, and civilization wide.

 

A) Less particulate pollution around cities and lower CO2 emissions.

 

:shrug: If we import no oil from the mideast the chaos of that part of the world will have less economic effect.

 

C) I suspect sometime over the next 50 years we will see wars over oil if we haven't already. However, if oil is not needed as much, it is less likely.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions about what it would take for you to embrace the idea of electric cars?

[apeweek]

In a number of threads and forums I have seen posts from people that refuse to entertain the idea of electric cars.

 

I am curious if anyone here fits in that category.

 

Think of it in this hypothetical framework, would you drive an electric car if...

 

 

 

Well, I'm an advocate, not a critic (I drive an EV, an old one.) But I'd like to comment on your list anyway.

 

A) From 'well to road' it produces much less pollution and no pollution at the road end of things.

 

This is already true, as has been discussed elsewhere on this board.

 

:) It looks like any other car (no oversized golf cart styling).

C) It is as safe or safer than any other car.

D) It performs better than similarily priced ICE (internal combustion engine) cars.

 

I believe all these are already true as well. If you look through various peoples' EVs on this site:

 

austinev.org/evalbum/

 

...you will see that a great number of them are quite normal looking cars, with similar performance characteristics. (Please note, many of the cars on this site are quite old, so don't take them for state-of-the-art.) Some differences to point out: EVs perform better in the sense that, being transmissionless, you get smooth shift-free acceleration. But that has a flip side in that the top speeds of most of these cars top out at 60 or 70 or 80. The Tesla uses two gears to get to 130mph. Many EVs don't bother with a transmission, and live with a lower top-end speed. Note: Some EVs, including my own, have transmissions because they are converted gas cars. My motor gets optimum performance by using 4th gear only. I just put it into 4th and drive, without using the clutch.

 

 

E) Cost of maintaining it is lower than and ICE car.

This is definitely true. Electric motors are basically maintenance free. The only thing that might make this not true is battery replacement. With an old lead-acid battery pack (like my EV has) the batteries have to be replaced every few years. If I don't take care of my batteries, they might die in three years. If I care for them, I can get up to 8 years out of them. Luckily, lead-acid batteries are cheap, and a replacement pack price (buying the batteries in bulk) is around $800. So, assuming I care for my car, battery cost is about $100/year - which is about what I would be otherwise paying for oil changes. Even if I screw up, and toast my batteries every few years, my total maintenance costs are still lower than most ICE cars.

 

Newer EVs with LI-Ion packs have much more expensive batteries, but also longer lives. Most LI-Ion batteries have a lifetime of 500 charges, and some newer varieties can handle 1000 charges or more. This means a 200-mile range pack will last 100,000 or even 200,000 miles (200 x 1000 = 200,000.) Tesla guarantees their batteries for 100,000 miles.

 

F) Initial cost is the same as an ICE with similar performance/profile.

We're very close to this. This imported Chinese EV has an MSRP of $28,500, a 200-mile range, and an 80mph top speed:

 

milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html

 

All it takes is a little mass acceptance to bring prices down.

 

It should also be pointed out how much money an EV driver can save on fuel costs. Gas prices here in Michigan have been running around $3.10/gallon. In our typical 18mpg sedan, that would cost us about $224 for the 1300 miles/month we drive.

 

My electric utility has a special "EV rate" of 2 to 3 cents per KWH. (For off-peak charging only.) At 4 miles per KWH, my cost for the same 1300 miles is just a little over $8. Yes, EIGHT dollars. Even if my electric rate were 5 or 10 times higher, it would still be an awesome deal.

 

Here's something to try, when you go EV shopping. Do the same exercise I did above, and subtract the two fuel costs to get the difference (in my case, $216.) Then subtract the $216 from whatever monthly payment you're quoted. This is what the car REALLY costs you. You may discover you can afford a more expensive car than you thought.

 

Another bonus, for those of you, like me, who are self-employed: All my business miiles are deductible from taxes at the IRS rate of 44 cents/mile. This is a ridiculously generous number for an EV. If my 1300 miles/month can be justified as business miles, this gets me a $6864 yearly tax deduction, which at the 28% tax rate is a refund of about $1921, or $160/month.

 

If you're in search of a business vehicle, you may discover that the IRS refund plus the fuel and maintenance savings almost completely covers your car payment. Try this with that $28500 chinese EV above.

 

A Free EV!

[pgrmdave]

Where could I go to learn more about electric cars?

[apeweek]

Where could I go to learn more about electric cars?

 

Here are a few favorite links:

 

http://electrifyingtimes.com/

 

http://www.electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml

 

http://www.evfinder.com/

 

http://www.electric-cars-online.info/

 

http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

 

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4214/links.html

[Errin OH]

A) No.

 

:lightbulb No. Actually I think it be cool to drive a golf cart at 75mph.

 

C) Not really. If it isn’t safe I wouldn’t drive an ICE.

 

D) Helpful.

 

E) No.

 

F) Again Helpful.

 

I fully believe that a day will come that electric cars will be viable. They likely will start out in urban areas where the driving demands are limited to shorter distances. Another help item would be a way to segregate heavy ICE from lighter weight EVs. As we develop lighter and stronger shells, improve storage capacities, and increase rang, EVs will have a place in the future.

 

As to the oil comment, Fuel is only a small portion of oil. It is highly unlikely simply moving away from fuel will change that much. Just look around the room. Everything from the computer you are reading this on, the carpet under your feet, the glues holding you desk together, the wiring (insulation) in the walls, to some of the clothes you are wearing are partially, if not completely made from oil. Then there is all that stuff we have/will dumped in land fills.

 

The vech I drive now is based on the conditions that best suit the economics I have to deal with. If/when an Ev fits that bill I will be driving one.

[Zythryn]

 

I fully believe that a day will come that electric cars will be viable. They likely will start out in urban areas where the driving demands are limited to shorter distances. Another help item would be a way to segregate heavy ICE from lighter weight EVs. As we develop lighter and stronger shells, improve storage capacities, and increase rang, EVs will have a place in the future.

 

I believe the future is the next two years. I agree with you about the starting market, I would expand the early market a bit into suburban areas as well. Next year's Tesla has a range of 250 miles which is plenty for daily use. I would further constrain the early market to couples (one ICE for trips one EV).

As you noted, as range increases the market will as well.

 

As to the oil comment, Fuel is only a small portion of oil. It is highly unlikely simply moving away from fuel will change that much. Just look around the room. Everything from the computer you are reading this on, the carpet under your feet, the glues holding you desk together, the wiring (insulation) in the walls, to some of the clothes you are wearing are partially, if not completely made from oil. Then there is all that stuff we have/will dumped in land fills.

 

Currently about 60% of our oil is used for transportation. We also import about 60% of our oil. EVs are not expected to eliminate oil, however if they can help us get to the point where we have no reliance on mid-east oil I would count that a win. For the manufacturing and products you mention we have enough domestic oil.

 

Please note, I don't expect EVs to be 100% of the transportation vehicles. We will also need other technologies such as biodiesels and perhaps a bit of switchgrass ethonal.

 

The vech I drive now is based on the conditions that best suit the economics I have to deal with. If/when an Ev fits that bill I will be driving one.

 

As is the vehicle that I drive now. Over the near future as the prices come down and sedan models become available I hope to be driving one as well:)