What's Hidden in the Vatican Library?

[Michaelangelica]

I think the really old, vast libraries like the Bodeloin and Vatican have no idea what they have.

The indexing is 50-100+ years or more out of date.

Books are often miss-filed and sometimes occasionally re-discovered.

 

It would be nice if some charitable institution (Microsoft?) was to drop a lot of money in their laps so we could begin to discover what is there; or is held ;by these ancient libraries..

[alexander]

ok, been forgetting to write here, so:

 

The truth possibly?

Naaw, that was burned with all the books that were burned by the crusaders and church officials as "uhnoly"

 

I propose a UN resolution to sieze all of it & house it where anyone can access it.

good idea, and a bad one at the same time. Yes, good idea to have access to the library, bad idea to give everyone access to the physical tomes, you see, most of the texts in there are so historically old that special preservation methods are used to house them. Nobody realy knows what books are held at the Vatican, nor how they are sorted, even the people that work there will have trouble finding stuff, but, if you have ever been to a library with ancient texts, you would know that you have to wear gloves, and not use spatulas to flip pages in those books, commonly. Anyhow, the documents should be photographed, transcribed and made publically available in a searchable, electronic format ;) then locked in an air locked vaults with, once again, virtually no access to them.

 

There may be a problem with the UN resolution there too. Vatican City is its own country, that, as far as i know, is yet to join any military alliance, they are not a member of the UN (they are an observer), so any UN acts for actions within the city can, and likely will be taken as an act of war.

 

If it belongs to them, then obviously you shouldn't be getting upset that you are not aloud to see it.

correction, it belongs to the catholic church, church that only exists by people donating money to it, many people donate money to the church, and it can then purchase and pay for preservation of those books. Also, while the medium may belong to the church, the content belongs to the authors who, as far as i know, did not give explicit permission to the church to hide their writings there, i mean there are original texts by Galileo there. So, books belong to church that belongs to people, so books belong to people, and content belongs to writers, and nobody canceled copyright laws, so, once again, preserver the originals, photograph and transcribe the texts, then post both to a searchable electronic media format.

[Michaelangelica]

How come the paranoia about the Catholic Church and the Vatican Library?

 

I would be very surprised if any documents were destroyed.

 

All the inquisition documents are there as, like the Nazis, the Church keep meticulous records of trials and executions.

 

I am sure if you had a valid research interest you would be able to access whatever documents you needed. Apart from say church policy & papers of the last 50 years. A fairly common restriction on government papers. We are still only just seeing the release of WW2 Secret war papers -over 60 years after the event.

 

I would suspect that many Italian Libraries would be in poor shape given their lackadaisical protection of other historical sites. There is just so much history there they get blaze and can't protect it all.

Saving Venice is going to be difficult enough.

 

Twenty years ago I visited the Boolean Library in Cambridge England. They had only half their 600 year old collection catalogued and without a catalogue it is fairly useless, as I frustratingly found out. I was appalled that they didn't even have a clue what they had.

They had on display all the papers of the wonderful poet Gerard Manly Hopkins. That display alone, was twice as big as my local council library.

(BTW these, local and Uni. libraries libraries, regularly throw out 'old' books or underused ones- terrible-so they won't be getting my collection when I die)

 

We need some white Night like Bill Gates et al to put as much of these old libraries in a digital format accessible to the world.

In some well endowed USA libraries this is starting to happen. It would be lovely to touch and see (or own ) an illustrated, medieval manuscript but the digital ones I have seen are a knock out.

[Turtle]

How come the paranoia about the Catholic Church and the Vatican Library?

 

Oh I don't know; a history of suppression, torture, & murder directed at anyone who challenged their authority? ;)

 

..We need some white Night like Bill Gates et al to put as much of these old libraries in a digital format accessible to the world.

In some well endowed USA libraries this is starting to happen. It would be lovely to touch and see (or own ) an illustrated, medieval manuscript but the digital ones I have seen are a knock out.

 

Already in progress. >> Google Book Search - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Michaelangelica]

Oh I don't know; a history of suppression, torture, & murder directed at anyone who challenged their authority? ;)]

Sounds more like intercine religious bigitory to me.:D

[Turtle]

Sounds more like intercine religious bigitory to me.:)

 

Intercine? Can't find that in my dictionary; is it a typo? Anyway, heaven belongs to who (whom?) ever dies with the most hidden books. :) Now where did I put that Gospel of Thomas? :)

[InfiniteNow]

Intercine? Can't find that in my dictionary; is it a typo?

 

That's simply because you're not using an Aussie dictionary. You with your special static/inflexible boring dictionary might want to look for internecine instead. :)

[Thunderbird]

Intercine? Can't find that in my dictionary; is it a typo? Anyway, heaven belongs to who (whom?) ever dies with the most hidden books. :) Now where did I put that Gospel of Thomas? :)

 

 

Have you studied any of the Gnostic text Turtle ? I would guess that there is more of the same hidden away in the Vatican. These writings were a real eye opener of how the Gospels are not balanced out between the institution of the church and personal spiritual growth, and between the Patriarchal an matriarchal.

 

There is also I believe, missing gospels, possibly from Jesus himself, being hidden by the Vatican along with the known omitted ones. I think you have an important point about what they are withholding, these writings do belong to the world, and not just the church.

[Turtle]

Have you studied any of the Gnostic text Turtle ? I would guess that there is more of the same hidden away in the Vatican. These writings were a real eye opener of how the Gospels are not balanced out between the institution of the church and personal spiritual growth, and between the Patriarchal an matriarchal.

 

There is also I believe, missing gospels, possibly from Jesus himself, being hidden by the Vatican along with the known omitted ones. I think you have an important point about what they are withholding, these writings do belong to the world, and not just the church.

 

I have studied some, yes. I picked Thomas because I doubt the Vatican is going to say, "Oh you said Thomas! Of course we have that." Cleanup on isle 2. :) :)

Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

[Thunderbird]

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene has Taoist and Buddhist concepts presented in first century Christian Semantics.

Jesus is quoted as saying that

"All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone."

 

This is very similiar to the Taoist concept of Oneness as expressed in Chapter 34 of Tao Teh Ching, Speaking of the Tao it says "All things derive their life from it [Tao] All things return to it, and it contains them."

[Turtle]

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene has Taoist and Buddhist concepts presented in first century Christian Semantics.

Jesus is quoted as saying that

All natures, all formed things, all creatures exist in and with one another and will again be resolved into their own roots, because the nature of matter is dissolved into the roots of its nature alone."

 

This is very similiar to the Taoist concept of Oneness as expressed in Chapter 34 of Tao Teh Ching, Speaking of the Tao it says "All things derive their life from it [Tao] All things return to it, and it contains them."

 

Mmmm...the online version I ususlly reference has a different #34:

LaoTze - TaoDeJing

34. Control

The Way flows and ebbs, creating and destroying,

Implementing all the world, attending to the tiniest details,

Claiming nothing in return.

 

It nurtures all things,

Though it does not control them;

It has no intention,

So it seems inconsequential.

 

It is the substance of all things;

Though it does not control them;

It has no exception,

So it seems all-important.

 

The sage would not control the world;

He is in harmony with the world.

 

Here's some feisty discourse on Mary Magdalene & whether or not she married Jesus: :)>> http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/8627-jesus-married.html?highlight=Jesus+married

[alexander]

I would be very surprised if any documents were destroyed.

when they were burning tomes upon tomes of gospels, nooo, ofcourse nothing was destroyed :)

 

I am sure if you had a valid research interest you would be able to access whatever documents you needed.

noouuuuuuu, no, no, believe me when i say this, the waiting list for approval to use the vatican library is measured in years, and you get to apply, explain exactly what research you are doing, and if it is in any way, possibly linked with something that is not religious, chances of you getting the approval are slim to none...

 

We need some white Night like Bill Gates et al to put as much of these old libraries in a digital format accessible to the world.

if the ol' billy boy gets to it, you would have to pay an a fee per every search you make, and it will likely not be returning to you anything you were actually looking for. You want a company with resources and experience to do this, Amazon or google for example...

 

It would be lovely to touch and see (or own ) an illustrated, medieval manuscript but the digital ones I have seen are a knock out.

another misconception, even if you get access to the library, you are still not allowed to touch the pages, it is a HUGE no-no, and if anyone sees you doing that, chances are that they will throw you out... (cambridge library has a section that is like that as well, you need to gain access to it, and, yeah, the same deal, no touchey, books too precious and old :) )

 

Intercine? Can't find that in my dictionary; is it a typo?

 

Turtle, the that she wanted to type in correctly is internecine.

 

Definition:

It comes from the Latin: "inter" (between, among) and "necare" (to kill). It means a conflict destructive to both sides, or very bloody.

We do tend to use it to describe civil wars: "The United States fought a terrible internecine war from 1861 to 1865."

 

that's not a real word. Depending on context, it's likely that you mean internecine, which describes a conflict between to groups or nations.

[Thunderbird]

Mankind’s enviable fate will not depend on any scientific or institutional intelligentsia that we can invent, but will succumb to the eventual Tao, or way, inherent within information itself...Thunderbird

 

 

:)

 

Harmony is only in following the Way.

 

The Way is without form or quality,

But expresses all forms and qualities;

The Way is hidden and implicate,

But expresses all of nature;

The Way is unchanging,

But expresses all motion.

 

Beneath sensation and memory

The Way is the source of all the world.

How can I understand the source of the world?

By accepting.

 

I keep forgetting this:doh:

[alexander]

There is also I believe, missing gospels, possibly from Jesus himself, being hidden by the Vatican along with the known omitted ones.

 

Likely they have the gospels that were officially submitted to be included in the bible (170 or something like that), but that does not mean that all the gospels are going to be there, by no mean, many, hundreds, thousands, perhaps more, were burned when Rome was promoting their one unified bible, you know, going from church to church, taking their writings, burning them, and giving them the new bible they were supposed to abide by. If it wasn't the romans, it was likely the turks, but all the same, only a few manuscripts survived. I hope, i wish, i pray, if you will, (no i am not religious) that there is a cave out there that will contain a library that has not been discovered, of ancient books that were not burned or discovered with time, buried in airtight sarcophagi preserved to this day, like the chinese mummies... and that one day it will be uncovered and the wonderful truth about all your main characters of the Jesus era will be revealed, what kind of person he really was, what happend throughout his life, etc... you know, the truth that the church will denouce to be true, call the hard working monks that wrote the scrolls and died for them, heretics, and burn the person who discovered those scrolls at the stake, the usual, you know...

[Turtle]

...

Turtle, the that she wanted to type in correctly is internecine.

 

Definition:

It comes from the Latin: "inter" (between, among) and "necare" (to kill). It means a conflict destructive to both sides, or very bloody.

We do tend to use it to describe civil wars: "The United States fought a terrible internecine war from 1861 to 1865."

 

that's not a real word. Depending on context, it's likely that you mean internecine, which describes a conflict between to groups or nations.

 

Uhhh Alex...Michael is a he, and I was making a joke with him about spelling. Double dipped and self-referentially right over you head again. :)

 

I wonder what joke books are hidden in the Vatican Library? What's their oldest copy of the Te Tao Jing? :)

[Michaelangelica]

Intercine? Can't find that in my dictionary; is it a typo? Anyway, heaven belongs to who (whom?) ever dies with the most hidden books. :) Now where did I put that Gospel of Thomas? :)

A mis spelling but a common one by the looks of it

intercine fighting between cliques is very destructive and disunity inside a clique even more but with emotional baggage to go with it.

Life Coach, Life Coaching, Life and Executive Coaching, Life Coaching and Executive Coaching Sydney

Israeli-designated terrorist thug, Mohammed Dahlan in order to foment the intercine violence.

 

Not that Obama is a fanatical Muslim, but the intercine warfare exists between the Democrat front-runners.

Horses Mouth January 24, 2007 12:41 PM

 

Adj. 1. internecine - (of conflict) within a group or organization; "an internecine feud among proxy holders"

 

2. internecine - characterized by bloodshed and carnage for both sides; "internecine war"

internecine - definition of internecine by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

As I used it, I meant bigoted conflict within a group. In this case Christianity.

[Michaelangelica]

Likely they have the gospels that were officially submitted to be included in the bible (170 or something like that), but that does not mean that all the gospels are going to be there, by no mean, many, hundreds, thousands, perhaps more, were burned when Rome was promoting their one unified bible, you know, going from church to church, taking their writings, burning them, and giving them the new bible they were supposed to abide by. If it wasn't the romans, it was likely the turks, but all the same, only a few manuscripts survived. .

Have you any proof of this?

modern or Ancient history?

Are you implying a modern conspiracy?

 

Vatican Library in Rome Closes: Saint Louis University Becomes Hub for World's Leading Scholars

 

ST. LOUIS -- On Saturday, July 14, the Vatican Library in Rome is closing for a three-year renovation. The closure will make Saint Louis University's renowned Vatican Film Library even more important for the world's leading scholars and researchers.

 

The Knights of Columbus Vatican Film Library, located in the University's Pius XII Memorial Library, holds microfilm copies of approximately 37,000 of the Vatican Library's 70,000 manuscript codices. Because of this extensive collection, officials from Rome are encouraging scholars to come to St. Louis during the renovation period.

 

Holding major portions of the Vatican's Greek, Latin and Western European vernacular collections as well as materials in Arabic, Ethiopic and Hebrew, the Vatican Film Library at Saint Louis University is one of the largest and most comprehensive libraries in the world for medieval and Renaissance manuscript studies. The Vatican Film Library also has microfilm of some of history's most important treasures, including early complete texts of the Bible and early works of Virgil.

 

"The Vatican Film Library has not only the advantage of the concentration of the material, but it also has this wonderful research collection that's built up around it," said Dr. Gregory Pass, head of special collections and director of the Vatican Film Library. "There are so many ancillary reference works and periodicals that are needed to carry out manuscript research. You need a very well-stocked library."

Vatican Library in Rome Closes: Saint Louis University Becomes Hub for World's Leading Scholars : Saint Louis University : SLU

The Joplin Globe, Joplin, MO - Missouri: Microfilm of rare Vatican texts resides in St. Louis

 

http://www.ptwf.org/Downloads/VaticanLoanMaimonidesManuscriptsIsraelMuseum.pdf