Who is Lucifer? Who is the Devil? Who is Satan?

[Michaelangelica]

What about justice? You think it would be good to reward evil?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

If one wants a direct example of the influence of Lucifer on God, read the book of Job in the bible. Lucifer puts God to the challenge and God bends over backwards to do what he says. God falls for the con but in the end learns from his mistake. All God had to do was use his ominscience, but falls for the temporal judgement. This begins a change in God.

For this you need to believe that the Bible is the ultimate word of god. I don't

 

How can god be "conned" if he knows present, past, future, and is all knowing?

[Southtown]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

Excellent answer. One scripture that could fix the world. I think God would qualify, though.

 

For this you need to believe that the Bible is the ultimate word of god. I don't

 

How can god be "conned" if he knows present, past, future, and is all knowing?

You're simply arguing Hydro's word choice. God was proud of Job, whom he saw as upright. Then Satan said that was because Job had it too good. God then attempts to show Satan otherwise by removing all of Job's blessings except his life. Job remained righteous, and God was shown to be right. But I think the real point was that God doesn't just say, 'you're wrong Satan, go to hell!' God actually allowed his claim to be tested and proven. Beautiful story.

[learnin to learn]

God actually allowed his claim to be tested and proven. Beautiful story.

 

hmmmmm the basis of science

[Southtown]

Exactly. =) Few see that about Job, though.

[Michaelangelica]

The nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.

In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences,

Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years". "But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

http://australian-politics.blogspot.com/2006/10/muslim-leader-blames-women-.for-sex.html

 

Religion is Evil, the spawn of Satan

[Southtown]

I don't know what you mean.

 

What is evil?

 

How could character (Satan) in a 'fictitious' story be the author?

 

What does that article have to do with religion? It sounds like the pre-historic "sex for spices" type culture.

[Spiked Blood]

You're simply arguing Hydro's word choice. God was proud of Job, whom he saw as upright. Then Satan said that was because Job had it too good. God then attempts to show Satan otherwise by removing all of Job's blessings except his life. Job remained righteous, and God was shown to be right. But I think the real point was that God doesn't just say, 'you're wrong Satan, go to hell!' God actually allowed his claim to be tested and proven. Beautiful story.

 

Beautiful? No. Though for someone that claims to be religious, it would be prudent if you told the story properly. About 75% of what you've written is wrong.:confused:

 

Oh and the story of Job is contradictory when measured up with other parts of the bible. If one chapter invalidates the authenticity of another chapter, then surely you should remove that chapter from a 'holy book'...Unfortuantely if you did that, there would be no bible. It contradicts itself that many times.

 

If the 'word of god' isn't consistent..then it isn't the word of god.

[IDMclean]

If the 'word of god' isn't consistent..then it isn't the word of god.

 

Hence the existence of god as truth.

 

What is in concistent with what is conceived and validated by perception, is invalid and hence not the truth.

 

Oh and the book of Job is about a righteous man who held his conviction in the face of adversity. The story of Job is about a man, with god and the satan appearing as cameos to the story of this righteous man, who holds the truth and is unbreakable, because the truth itself sustains him.

[Southtown]

Beautiful? No. Though for someone that claims to be religious, it would be prudent if you told the story properly. About 75% of what you've written is wrong.:shrug:

 

Oh and the story of Job is contradictory when measured up with other parts of the bible. If one chapter invalidates the authenticity of another chapter, then surely you should remove that chapter from a 'holy book'...Unfortuantely if you did that, there would be no bible. It contradicts itself that many times.

Feel free to provide some support for any of this.

[Michaelangelica]

Feel free to provide some support for any of this.

By its very nature this Thread is about beliefs and values, something hard to provide objective truth for.

I don't know about the correctness of biblical references, but it seems that it can be used to justfy almost anything.

 

O, the latest "evil" of the catholic church They have banned abortions in Panama where there is rape or a danger to the health or life of the mother by continuing with the pregnancy.

[Southtown]

By its very nature this Thread is about beliefs and values, something hard to provide objective truth for.

I don't know about the correctness of biblical references, but it seems that it can be used to justfy almost anything.

 

O, the latest "evil" of the catholic church They have banned abortions in Panama where there is rape or a danger to the health or life of the mother by continuing with the pregnancy.

Considering that SB and I are not discussing beliefs but scripture, I think objectivity is quite possible when people are willing to discuss it (as opposed to slander.)

[InfiniteNow]

I think objectivity [re: scripture] is quite possible when people are willing to discuss it

I do not share your sense regarding the above. It's not objective, nothing ever really is. Objectivity is basically subjectivity couched in an attempt to limit bias, but that's not the point of this thread and is a personal stance anyway...

 

(as opposed to slander.)

This, however, is very possible. :confused:

[Southtown]

Then I guess it's unlikely that SB will furnish a good reason why I've got Job all wrong.

 

P.S. What is the point of this thread, anyway?

[Spiked Blood]

I do not share your sense regarding the above. It's not objective, nothing ever really is. Objectivity is basically subjectivity couched in an attempt to limit bias, but that's not the point of this thread and is a personal stance anyway...

 

 

Add on the fact there are so many different versions of the bible, and so many denominations of the one religion.

 

Southtown, we both know I could never convince you that your religion is wrong. Your mind is closed.

 

God was proud of Job, whom he saw as upright. Then Satan said that was because Job had it too good. God then attempts to show Satan otherwise by removing all of Job's blessings except his life. Job remained righteous, and God was shown to be right. But I think the real point was that God doesn't just say, 'you're wrong Satan, go to hell!' God actually allowed his claim to be tested and proven. Beautiful story.

As for your incorrect interpretation of the story of Job. God took nothing from Job, he gave Satan the power to do so.

 

Job fears god and shuns evil. According to Satan, Job was only fearful that God would take his toys away. If Job believes God is screwing with him, why would he curse his name? If he feared God before, then now he'd be terrified.

 

As for how the story of Job invalidates much of the meaning behind the bible: why don't you think about it? Give it some genuine attention and you may come to your own conclusion free from my influence.

[learnin to learn]

Add on the fact there are so many different versions of the bible, and so many denominations of the one religion.

 

Southtown, we both know I could never convince you that your religion is wrong. Your mind is closed.

 

why do you think that his mind is closed? Trying to convince ST that his religion is wrong is just like he trying to convince you that evolution has no basis in the world. ( I am just comparing, i am not starting a discussion on evoultion) it is not that his mind is closed it is that he and you have different beliefs. And you cannot change his beliefs just as he cannot change yours.

[Southtown]

As for your incorrect interpretation of the story of Job. God took nothing from Job, he gave Satan the power to do so.

Got me there.

 

Job fears god and shuns evil. According to Satan, Job was only fearful that God would take his toys away.

And there too. (Toys? Like food, health, and family?)

 

If Job believes God is screwing with him, why would he curse his name? If he feared God before, then now he'd be terrified.

In a word: righteousness. If Job didn't think God was righteous, but was just a selfish tyrant, then he wouldn't worship God. That's called gravelling. In my experience, people who don't think God is good just say 'to hell with him'. Job was struggling with observations that opposed the belief that God was righteous.

 

As for how the story of Job invalidates much of the meaning behind the bible: why don't you think about it? Give it some genuine attention and you may come to your own conclusion free from my influence.

I already have. =P

[HydrogenBond]

In the story of Job, Satan is separate from God, but has an influence over God. In other words, God could have just consulted his own omniscience and knew what the final result was going to be. He could have avoided the whole mess with Job. But God in the old testament gives Satan a lot of influence in the affairs of earth and heaven. Job saw the distinction between God and the influence of Satan. Even with God bragging about all the crap he could do, Job knew that was Satan's influence and stuck to what he knew God really was. This changed God, since God was able to see what he was in Job's eyes.

 

It is sort of like someone believe in you and you not in yourself. But eventually you begin to see yourself through their eyes until one becomes what they really are, instead of an image of their insecurities. Satan was the source of God's insecurities.