Evolution not the only thing to be taught anymore?

[Kevin Wirth]

I always find it amazing when people discuss what someone WAS when there isn't any facts to support that that person even existed.

 

Just how tall was this person that very likely didn't even exist? Do we just make it up, like the various picts we see of "Jesus", and call it the truth? Are we Christians and thus so willing to reject facts and evidence?

 

And I am always amazed at people such as you who claim to know that evolution is a fact when there was no one present to observe it.

 

Ya, Jesus did exist, Pilate did exist, Paul did exist, So did Moses and Noah.

 

One day...you WILL know this.

[Stargazer]

If I'm playing poker and the stakes are my eternal life, am I going to bet on the hand that relies on ONLY stuff that I can know just from science alone, or do I play the hand that relies on BOTH science and Revelation? ;)

Why choose that book? Are there no other mythologies that offer similar things?

 

No branch of science depends on evolution, sorry (even tho many seem to think so). Science won't fall apart if evolution isn't true. Science is bigger than the theories spawned in its name. It had better be!

The theory of evolution is indeed central to biology. Therefor, if evolution is proven to be wrong (btw, where is that evidence I asked for?), then biology as we know it would indeed be changed. If we also adopt the Genesis myth, then plenty of other scientific fields would be completely revised as well. How this could happen, I don't understand. It would require the evidence we already have to disappear in such a way that it never existed and never will.

[Stargazer]

And I am always amazed at people such as you who claim to know that evolution is a fact when there was no one present to observe it.

Yes, let us conviniently ignore the fact that we don't have to be "there" to see what most likely happened. Let us also ignore the fact that evolution and speciation have been observed. Let us ignore all facts that we do not agree with... it makes it easier to believe all the other stuff.

 

Ya, Jesus did exist, Pilate did exist, Paul did exist, So did Moses and Noah.

As the creationists would say... were you there!?

 

Oh, and don't get me started about that Noah fantasy story...

 

One day...you WILL know this.

Since you already know this, it would indicate there is evidence. Where is this evidence?

[lindagarrette]

Unless they are ignorant or stupid, science teachers should be able to explain to students why evolution is science and other notions are not. That way, if they teach creationism or ID, they can put it in proper perspective, i.e. as mythology and superstition.

[Freethinker]

Kevin,

WELCOME!!

Nice to hear another voice from the other side of the fence for a change. :)

Freethinker and Stargazer, be kind, won't you? I think I like this new person a bit.

 

Geez, it's really good to be back from vacation!

Be kind? You mean not follow his example? OK, I won't be "Christian" about this then. I will be fair instead.

 

So far all that we have read from Kevin is empty claims. And that is stating it kindly. We hear the typical empty claims like

 

Some of the best scientists in history were creationists - including folks in the biological sciences arena.

But we will not find factual details supporting it. Instead we get the next line, which serves as a disclaimer incase someone does request factual support.

Of course, THAT'S because if you're not evolutionist, you are often denied academic advancement to higher education.

Or we get things like

Evolution is only one of your most 'successful ones' not because of its merits, but because it has been one of the most successful marketing campaigns in the history of science. If someone takes the time to look behind the curtain, I can promise many big surprizes to the person who is a true sketic - which is a required attitude of a true scientist.

Ya if someone only took the time eh! What promised suprises you could have if someone only took the time! Shame you didn't.

 

Yes we regularly get Christers claiming this incredible pile of support which disproves scientific finds such as Evolution. Remember the magical formula Irish's hubby had which would prove to us all once and for all that god exists, as soon as he gets it worked out? Or CS27? Or.... One after another

 

Now Kevin!

[Freethinker]

One method teachers cn use, and if they are scientists at all, they are aware of the principle of falsifiability For an assertion to be falsifiable, in principle it must be possible to make an observation or do a physical experiment that would show the assertion to be false. For example, the assertion "All crows are black" could be falsified by observing one red crow. Any thinking person can relate to this. Try to falsify one of the ID assertions.

OK - try this one on for size: "The likelihood that ANY complex biological machine originated by successive chance operations is so highly unlikely that any reasonable person would reject it as all but impossible."

 

This can be falsified in just the same way that many evolutionary assertions can be.

1) "falsifiable, in principle it must be possible to make an observation or do a physical experiment that would show the assertion to be false." You failed completely to structure a falsifiable claim.

 

2) your post was a claim AGAINST Evolution, not a claim SUPPORTING ID. You failed completely to structure a falsifiable claim.

 

Yes you are so obviously a Creationist Christer. A well worn pattern of complete lack of understanding or factual support. Oh well, nothing new there!

[Freethinker]

Believing in Adam and Eve, or evolution is *not* a requirement for a Christian to be saved, and I think you know this.

 

Certainly, you must know this.

 

Jesus spelled it out Himself:

 

"He who has believed and has been baptised shall be saved, He who has disbelieved shall be condemned" Matt 16:16

Hahahahaha. I mean ya just gotta love it!

 

First you state that believing (in the bible, you know, stuff like Adam and Eve) is "*not* a requirement for a Christian to be saved" and then you give a biblical passage that REQUIRES belief!

 

And you are clueless RE the contradiction!

 

How priceless!

 

How Christian! lol!

[Freethinker]

This is (almost) accurate.

 

Jesus didn't actually 'reject' the 10 Commandments - he simply put them in their proper context. They are still good today as 'training wheels' for how we should behave. Jesus dis, however, give us "new" commandments as 'Blame the Ex' says.

Here we go folks. Two Christians with their perfect word from their all pwoerful god.... and neither can agree on what it says! Bring in a third or fourth and and you will have that many more PERFECT understandings of what their god says!

 

And THIS is what they want taught in SCIENCE class!

 

Even the bible can't agree on Creation. Gen Chapter 1 and 2 contradict each other on Creation, just as these two do here on other parts of the bible. There are at least three versions of the 10 Demandments that I know of.

 

Fortunately, by keeping religious nonsense out of Science class, we can teach FACTS and use REASON to evaluate them. And nothing fits this mold better than Evolution.

[lindagarrette]

FT, where did you get that last quote from? Not me. I couldn't figure out what you meant in your reply either.

[Freethinker]

Unfortunately, the universe does not work according to just scientific principles.

And I MISSED this one! How utterly hilarious is this?

Not all of reality is subject to scientific verification. Some aspects of reality may be known by other means, like, "Revelation".

Ya like the moon GENERATING light? Snakes eating dirt? Bats being birds? Snakes talking? Flat Earth? a single point on Earth that allows someone to see the ENTIRE planet? pi=3.0?

Revelation as a means of knowing some aspects of the universe is also "not" and abandonment of reason or a reliance upon superstition.

Perhaps one other than the Christian source? Because it REQUIRES an "abandonment of reason (and) a reliance upon superstition".

[lindagarrette]

Oops, I did post that comment a while back but it is no longer in context. I can't figure out where this thread is going. It's not worthwhile discussing creationism/evolution in this forum. There are lots of others out there in cyberland just for that purpose. This one is for scientists, or so I thought.

[Freethinker]

And I am always amazed at people such as you who claim to know that evolution is a fact when there was no one present to observe it.

Evolution is a PROCESS. It is a process which HAS BEEN PROVEN. It has been proven over and over, in labs, in farms, in kennels, .... It has been observed by yourself regularly.

Ya, Jesus did exist, Pilate did exist, Paul did exist, So did Moses and Noah.

 

One day...you WILL know this.

Well you can help speed things along. That is if you have ANY substance to your (otherwise fairytale) claims. (Get ready folks)

 

Please provide ANY contemporary eyewitness written factual verification of the existence of the biblical Jesus.

 

Or have the intellectual integrety to admit you don't have any. And then stop claiming he existed.

[Freethinker]

The theory of evolution is indeed central to biology. Therefor, if evolution is proven to be wrong (btw, where is that evidence I asked for?),

Star, you know if we push too hard for actual factual proof, he will just run away and hide.

 

Or just start threads demanding we don't bring religion into them lest factual PROOF be required.

 

History does repeat itself.

[Freethinker]

Unless they are ignorant or stupid, science teachers should be able to explain to students why evolution is science and other notions are not. That way, if they teach creationism or ID, they can put it in proper perspective, i.e. as mythology and superstition.

Unfortunately Linda, teachers in the US follow population stats. The majority are Christians and accept the ignorance and stupidity you refer to.

 

According to Aguillard 1999, Moore 1999c, and references therein, over 40% of biology teachers believe that creationism is or may be scientifically valid, and they either do or want to teach creationism in their classes. Nearly another quarter of biology teachers avoid or play down the topic, and many biology teachers do not recall hearing the word evolution in their college biology courses

 

Minnesota, South Dakota, Indiana and Pennsylvania have the nation's highest standards for teaching evolution, relatively large percentages of their biology teachers believe that creationism should be included in science classes, spend little time teaching evolution, and question the scientific validity of evolution (Weld and McNew 1999; Rutledge and Warden 2000).

 

It's little wonder that recent stats show the US falling way behind the rest of the Industrialized world in Science knowledge. We are losing the Technology battle in the marketplace and it is all because of religious ignorance being promoted over FACTS.

[Freethinker]

FT, where did you get that last quote from? Not me. I couldn't figure out what you meant in your reply either.

I took the quote from the report of it from Kevin. I think! ? ! :-)

 

What I was getting at was how your attempt to promote the scientific methodology of falsifyability was totally missed by him.

[Freethinker]

Oops, I did post that comment a while back but it is no longer in context. I can't figure out where this thread is going. It's not worthwhile discussing creationism/evolution in this forum. There are lots of others out there in cyberland just for that purpose. This one is for scientists, or so I thought.

Christers always want to find another place to prostelitize. Misery loves company. We must fight to maintain science at every turn.

[pgrmdave]

Rather than fight against religion, why not work with those religious people who also accept science? You would be able to change the system better from within than without.