Going to hell in a hand basket

[coberst]

Going to hell in a hand basket

 

In the world of natural science existence is that which is measurable. If it cannot be measured it does not exist--except as that which must be exorcised--in any important way in the world of natural science. In the world of capitalism existence is that which correlates with commodity (an object of commerce). A person has value because s/he produces and/or consumes commodities.

 

The ideology of capitalism determines what is valuable and the nation’s institutions are determined by this ideology. Our schools are designed to produce good workers and hardy consumers. If a person wishes to be more than a producer or consumer s/he must find a way to do so without a great deal of help from the nation’s institutions.

 

To a large extent we are puppets of an ideology but we retain a degree of self-determination depending upon our strength of will, character, and intellectually developed desire.

 

Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities. If we study the logic of capitalism we can, I think, accurately predict the trajectory of society.

 

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy? If you agree, what can you and I do today to help start a change in trajectory?

[Ananke]

Ideology is a prison for the weak-minded. Anyone who buys into such a system, be it capitalistic, communist, christian or whatever, deserves to be exploited.

[cwes99_03]

Thus we exploit you for subscribing to the ideology that ideology is for the weak-minded. Welcome to the club ananke, you are one of us, just like all are one of us.

[Ananke]

You flatter yourself. Im nothing like you. The chains that hold your mind tethered have no grip on me.

[Eclogite]

I notice you have around three posts for every thread you have started. That leads me to believe you do not seriously wish to discuss this issue, but I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.

In the world of natural science existence is that which is measurable. If it cannot be measured it does not exist--except as that which must be exorcised--in any important way in the world of natural science.

This opening comment, reagrdless of its accuracy, seems to bear no relation to your thesis. Why have you included it?.

In the world of capitalism existence is that which correlates with commodity (an object of commerce). A person has value because s/he produces and/or consumes commodities.

This is true. Are you arguing that we live in a capitalist world? Has the term mixed economy not appeared over your horizon?

Our schools are designed to produce good workers and hardy consumers. If a person wishes to be more than a producer or consumer s/he must find a way to do so without a great deal of help from the nation’s institutions.

Whose schools? Which nation(s) are you refering to?

 

What do you understand to be the function(s) of a nation's institutions?

 

Every capitalistic nation is on a trajectory greatly determined by the logic (principles) of capitalism. The logic of capitalism is constructed to facilitate the production and consumption of commodities.

Well that's a relief. Clearly the UK is not a capitalist economy, since it produces few commodities, though many services.

 

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy?

I think it is impossibly vague. You have not defined what you mean by it. You have not established a justification for why you think capitalism would lead to this condition, whatever it is.

[Tormod]

Ideology is a prison for the weak-minded. Anyone who buys into such a system, be it capitalistic, communist, christian or whatever, deserves to be exploited.

 

Ananke, do you have anything to add to the discussion? If not, I suggest you refrain from posting in threads you have nothing to contribute to. you are in violation of our rules.

[coberst]

Eclogite

 

I never knew that someone was going to grade my posting. I have been posting on Internet forums for about three years and I find that only occassionaly do the responders focus on the essence of the post. Quite often they never get beyond reading the title.

 

I started my post with the example of measurability with natural science because I wanted the reader to comprehend the importance of commodity to capitalism. Guess it failed, huh?

 

In the world of capitalism if it isn’t already a commodity capitalism will do its darndest to make it one; including people, especially. It appears to me that America is mesmerized with its capitalism mystic. I cannot vouch for other societies in my analysis.

 

The institutions in America are focused primarily upon maximizing production and consumption. I certainly consider services to be a commodity (object of commerce).

 

Capitalism will, in my opinion, lead us to the abyss because capitalism, although having many positive factors, is concerned primarily with commerce without regard for any other value. Depletion of its natural resources receives little concern except for concern with what will replace those reserves when they are depleted. The American long vision is perhaps 12 months.

[Eclogite]

I never knew that someone was going to grade my posting.

I graded your posting? Hardly. I pointed out what I believed were flaws in your thesis and asked some questions to help remove ambiguities. In what way does this represent a 'grading' of your post?

I started my post with the example of measurability with natural science because I wanted the reader to comprehend the importance of commodity to capitalism. Guess it failed, huh?.

I'm afraid so, even now that you've explained the objective.:)

In the world of capitalism ......

You have not addressed my central point that we do not live in a capitalist world....even in America. There are aspects of capitalism present in most if not all nations, but the economic relationships between individuals, companies, governments, organisations and the like are far more complex and diverse than mere capitalism.

I could accept that the capitalistic aspects of American society will tend to drive the nation towards short term, consumption oriented activities. But you completely ignore all the other philosophies at work in shaping the destiny of the nation.

[Tarantism]

I predict that we (the world) are “going to hell in a hand basket”. What do you think about this bit of prophecy? If you agree, what can you and I do today to help start a change in trajectory?

 

we are all doomed, everything is "doomed". but, is the fact that there is no hope for eternal existance such a bad thing?? i do not think so. everything dies, species do what they can to continue to reproduce and survival of the fittest provides progression in how they interact with thier surrounding enviorment. every culture and species has its peak of production, and then they slowly (or quickly) die out. humans are no different. just because we have more measured sucess by OUR standards doesnt mean that one day our sucess will be dwarfed (and possibly anniahlated) by another species, probably alien.

 

there is no utopian society, unless we can remove the greed of humans. while we cant change our inevitable fate, we can prolong the existance of our race as a whole by letting creativity flow unhindered by inhabitions and so-called morality. once people start thinking for themselves again, if they ever did, then the ideas will flow and progression and improvement will run ramped...it would be the golden age of human existance. wouldnt that be nice to be a part of, ey hypographers? :D

[Tarantism]

You flatter yourself. Im nothing like you. The chains that hold your mind tethered have no grip on me.

anake, i went through quite that same conclusional thought process, once. what you must realize is that you are simpily conforming to unconformity. you may think that you have less ignorance that most of the world, and that very well could be true, but that certainly makes you no better than anyone else. you are still, by nature, as are we all, ignorant. besides, have you ever heard the term ignorance is bliss, my friend?

[coberst]

Eclogite

 

Yes you are correct every person has a matrix of ideologies that guide that person. I may be a Catholic, a Democrat, a capitalist, and a pro-choice supporter but I think we all have a dominant ideology to which the others, when in conflict, bow. When my Catholicism and my pro-choice conflict one or the other takes the upper hand.

 

Our society, in the US, is dominated by our capitalistic views because, I guess, economics plays such a vital roll in our lives and because capitalism, through its power, dominates our complete educational and media structure. I think that capitalism in the US is like water to a fish; like Einstein said ‘what does a fish know of water’. Likewise capitalist principles are like nature to most US citizens.

 

Such principles as private property and individual freedom to invest and to use the rewards of such investment as they please are like the rain and the sun, they are natural without thought. Seldom does an American question the right of a CEO to be rewarded far beyond the rewards of the fellow workers in the corporation. Such views are sacrosanct in the US.

[coberst]

we are all doomed, everything is "doomed". but, is the fact that there is no hope for eternal existance such a bad thing?? i do not think so. everything dies, species do what they can to continue to reproduce and survival of the fittest provides progression in how they interact with thier surrounding enviorment. every culture and species has its peak of production, and then they slowly (or quickly) die out. humans are no different. just because we have more measured sucess by OUR standards doesnt mean that one day our sucess will be dwarfed (and possibly anniahlated) by another species, probably alien.

 

there is no utopian society, unless we can remove the greed of humans. while we cant change our inevitable fate, we can prolong the existance of our race as a whole by letting creativity flow unhindered by inhabitions and so-called morality. once people start thinking for themselves again, if they ever did, then the ideas will flow and progression and improvement will run ramped...it would be the golden age of human existance. wouldnt that be nice to be a part of, ey hypographers? :D

 

I do not seek utopian society but I do seek to be critical of my society because I think that it can be much better than it is. I think that the critical attitude, questioning and analysis for the purpose of change, is the attitude we all should use when facing the world.

[Boerseun]

I can see what you're getting at.

 

And I agree on quite a number of points.

 

The thing is, is capitalism (chasing of the profit incentive etc) a normal result of less government? In other words, if we take away all government meddling in financial affairs, would a country sway spontaneously towards capitalism, socialism, communism? I sorta think it'll go the Capitalsim route, because it resonates very well with human nature. I'm not saying greed, for instance, is a good thing, but it is part and parcel of human nature.

 

Now, if that is indeed the case, and we wish to change the economic setup of any given country so as to get away from the inherent dangers in Capitalsim, we would be imposing more government, more rules, more artificial economic structures like Communism which is doomed to fail because it does not 'plug into' the human psyche as naturally as Capitalism does.

 

So - if we are on our way to hell in a handbasket, it might simply be because of who and what we as humans are. And then, as a species, it probably wouldn't be too bad in the Grand Scheme of Things if we did exit stage left.

[Tarantism]

I do not seek utopian society but I do seek to be critical of my society because I think that it can be much better than it is. I think that the critical attitude, questioning and analysis for the purpose of change, is the attitude we all should use when facing the world.

i agree completely.

[Eclogite]

Yes you are correct every person has a matrix of ideologies that guide that person. ..........

Our society, in the US, is dominated by our capitalistic views .......

I am not talking about, and I had not thought you were talking about, the individual, but the economic structure that was in place.

 

In that regard, I say again, to describe even the US, which is probably closer to true capitalism than any other country, is to be wholly inaccurate. Make me try to make it clearer:

The United States of America is not a capitalist country.

 

It is influenced by many of the tenets of capitalism, but it is also influenced by (Oh, horror and eternal perdition:eek: ) such things as socialism and communism.

 

If it were a truly capitalist country we would not see in excess of 20% of GDP being exercised by central government. Central government, mark you. The US has a mixed economy. Any assessment as to where it is going (heaven or hell) and what its preferred mode of transport is (pumpkin or hand basket) needs to take that into account.

I sorta think it'll go the Capitalsim route, because it resonates very well with human nature.

As does communism. Human's are both competitive and cooperative. A blending of the two approaches matches our nature far more effectively than a singular commitment to one or the other.

The fanciful Victorian image of "Nature, red in tooth and claw" lies two centuries in the past. It is time to abandon it and move on.

[Boerseun]

As does communism. Human's are both competitive and cooperative. A blending of the two approaches matches our nature far more effectively than a singular commitment to one or the other.

The fanciful Victorian image of "Nature, red in tooth and claw" lies two centuries in the past. It is time to abandon it and move on.

I see where you're coming from, too. However, your Victorian reference above is a bit of a strawman.

 

However altruistic you might feel towards cooperation amongst humans, there was never a communistic state in the history of planet Earth where communism wasn't legislated and violently imposed and militarily protected. Is this a form of government & economic policy 'resonating' with the human psyche? Humans need legislation to cooperate on a grand economic scale. In the absence of said legislation, humans will cooperate with friends and family. Not to the scale of the whole economy. Matter of fact, in every communist country, the voters only receive a token franchise - you can vote for anybody as long as he's a member of the Communist Party. And all alternatives are banned - because the people will jump to the very first one and get rid of the Communist system. In the absence of any legislation towards economic policy, humans will tend towards Capitalism, because of inherent greed. And this has nothing to do with the colour of my claws :D.

 

I appreciate your views here, but I think in this particular case you are mistaken.

[coberst]

I can see what you're getting at.

 

And I agree on quite a number of points.

 

The thing is, is capitalism (chasing of the profit incentive etc) a normal result of less government? In other words, if we take away all government meddling in financial affairs, would a country sway spontaneously towards capitalism, socialism, communism? I sorta think it'll go the Capitalsim route, because it resonates very well with human nature. I'm not saying greed, for instance, is a good thing, but it is part and parcel of human nature.

 

Now, if that is indeed the case, and we wish to change the economic setup of any given country so as to get away from the inherent dangers in Capitalsim, we would be imposing more government, more rules, more artificial economic structures like Communism which is doomed to fail because it does not 'plug into' the human psyche as naturally as Capitalism does.

 

So - if we are on our way to hell in a handbasket, it might simply be because of who and what we as humans are. And then, as a species, it probably wouldn't be too bad in the Grand Scheme of Things if we did exit stage left.

 

You make some very good points. The only place that I can see an opening in your views is that if the people could gain a more sophisticated intelligence we might be able to find a way to "accentuate the positive and to eleminate the negative" of too much hands-off capitalism and too much hands-on government.