My Best Argument Against Free Will

[Tarantism]

Free will certainly exists on a consious level...but what about subconsiously?

 

self is what you are, and it is a combination of your genes and everyone that you have met in your entire life. genes is where we get instinct, the people we meet effect or ability to be biased and provide us with opinion.

 

one responds to stimulation by critical thinking, and critical thinking looks to memory for the answers to questions. memory looks at instinct, and past interactions with similar situlations or interactions with people with experience with those situations, maybe providing the answers for you.

 

if you cannot find the solution internally, then you must look for external options, that is ansers provided by earth (ie. hit attacking animal with stick to save life) or by other people (ie. google it). either way how can free will and self exist if all outcomes have already been decided by past events? well, not nessesarily outcomes, but the possible outcomes are already set up because of a finite reality, and the probablilities are determined by memory, instinct and other external options. what is happening that is limitless, and therefore free? :D

[coberst]

I would respond by saying that we do have an unconscious life in which many things are constantly ongoing without our conscious interference. Our unconscious life is controlled to some extent by our biology and to some extent by our experience. The possible combinations and permutations approach infinity and thus we have some control based upon our will and some fixed characteristics that are a function of will. All in all I would say that this adds up to free will.

[Tarantism]

i dont think im quite grasping what you are trying to say here. are you saying that there are pre-decieded factors, but also random variables??? perhaps you didnt understand my post...

 

there are limits to what you can and cannot do based on what has occured before you. you are not free to belive that blue is red, because it has already been told to you otherwise. does that make sense? its important no to get caught on the words, but rather pay attention to the actions. you can apply my argument to any situation and come up with the same ultimate conclusion...for another example, you can consciously choose to, say, open the door or not. but subconsiously there are many factors contributing to your decision of weather or not to open the door. (ie. what your memory of the door is, etc.).

 

to help you understand my point, simply apply the critical thinknig process that i explained before to any situation. what you choose really isnt important because it is a paridigm, a universal truth.

 

does that help explain?

[coberst]

I think I comprehend what you are saying and I think that my reply is a direct response to what you said. Communication is often a problem.

[Freddy]

The best argument against free will is to ask those who believe in free will to provide empirical evidence that supports free will.

[Jay-qu]

Would you call a determined universe devoid of free will?

 

You can pick and choose all you want but ultimately the way your brain chemisty eventually decides wasnt random, just higher(or lower?) complex order.

 

Just something I have thought about, sitting around the fire, sipping on some fine ale.

[Tarantism]

I would respond by saying that we do have an unconscious life in which many things are constantly ongoing without our conscious interference.

 

i think that unconscious life effects conscious life, and vice versa. i do not believe that only one effects the other. i also do not see either independent from the other.

 

Our unconscious life is controlled to some extent by our biology and to some extent by our experience.

 

yes, thats what i said, only i think i imply a to a greater degree that this is the case, my example being the backup to my argument.

 

The possible combinations and permutations approach infinity...

 

i do not know what that means? are you saying that there are endless possibilities of characteristics and experiences for the individual? on that i would have to agree, but not because it is imidietly infinite, but rather because since everything changes, so do the number of possibilities. i would also have to say that it is finite because there are experiences that can disappear because of changing times.

 

what you may also mean is that the number of plausable probabilities is infinate. if this is the case that cannot be, there must be a finite number of options in order to have calculated probability.

 

...and thus we have some control based upon our will and some fixed characteristics that are a function of will. All in all I would say that this adds up to free will.

 

will is fixed characteristics being activated in a given situation. you have that backwards. i do not see this as a valid argument for free will, but perhaps you could elaborate?

[Tarantism]

...You can pick and choose all you want but ultimately the way your brain chemisty eventually decides wasnt random, just higher(or lower?) complex order...

 

The best argument against free will is to ask those who believe in free will to provide empirical evidence that supports free will.

 

agreed.

[Jay-qu]

agreed, is that all? does anyone else agree/object, is anyone even reading this :rant: :)

[Tarantism]

well....i would say that i hate the term "deterministic", because its not nessesarily set...but its tricky because when the traits of the personality, factors and physical rules of a situation and memory are all factored in, there isnt really another word that fits. i guess you could call it "probableistic"? but even then, those factor are there to rule out probabilities.

 

all in all though, yeah i agree with your statement. i would like to see some more replies too...

[coberst]

I think that you are correct; will is bounded by our biology. My basic conclusion is that there exists obvious limits of human action and thus there is only a finite degree of freedom as expressed by free will. However, this finiteness is in practical terms infinite and I am not interested in exploring the infinity of possibility that could exist beyond the infinity of practical possibilities that does exist.

 

Is that clear? If so please explain it to me.

[Tarantism]

yes, i think that i now see exactly what you are saying. let me attempt to rephrase for my own clarity...are you saying that free will can be possible and plausable to some infinate being existing ni an area of no limits, but here, in our finite universe we cannot have it because we are bound to what we do by our geneology and our biology?

[Freddy]

Free will is an illusion, while human behavior is determined by biologic/genetic and social influences. Read some of the countless social science studies that give evidence of biological and sociological determinism. The evidence is out there.

[coberst]

Tar...

 

Yes

[Tarantism]

then i suppose my response would be that it isnt practical to concern ourselves with the things that exist outside of our universal finity. infinity is a wonderful place, i think, and a place taht we cannot begin to comprehend. i would attempt to say that it is difficult to believe that free will could exist inside of infinity, because there is no choice there, no probabilities, because everything is happening at once.

 

thoughts?

[pgrmdave]

Biology has nothing to do with it, nor does sociology. There exists nothing but matter and energy, all of which (including you and I) are governed by physical law. Nothing else. There is no way for a rock to "choose" how to act, nor is there any way for our arm to "choose" how to act or for our brain to "choose" how to act. Biology, society, psychology don't factor in to it at all.

[Tarantism]

i would have to disagree because our genes appear to provide us with instinct, and we act on that all the time. havent you ever heard of someone "acting on their gut"? chemical reactions in our bodies govern much of what we do. how can you say this is not biology factoring in?