Corporal Punishment?

[Boerseun]

Saw Rebiu's thread about "Children are devious" regarding parental habits, and didn't want to hijack it - so I've made a new one here regarding only one specific issue:

 

Corporal Punishment.

 

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?

 

In my opinion, there are a few takes in rearing kids: One would be corporal punishment. Others include the pychological approach, where the whole story is explained to the kid why what he/she did was wrong, and exactly what the consequences are. Other approaches are when the kids are "bribed" into submission, when they might get rewards for their behaviour. This includes taking away TV priviledges, giving them sweets to stop causing havoc, etc.

 

In my personal opinion, the only form of authority you have over a kid is that you're physically bigger and stronger than the kid, and you can choke and throttle the kid any time you want. Even the youngest of kids know this. It's basic survival. Don't irritate the big guy - you might get killed.

A couple of years later, a slap on the bum or on the back of the hand isn't effective anymore, and then the "psychological" approach can be employed, simply because the kid's brain have developed to the extent where they can actually follow the argument. Then, in a mixed mode, the bribe can be employed as well.

 

My point is, there are people out there who blow a slap on the bum out the window as being "barbaric", etc., and that the "psychological" and the "bribe" methods should be exclusively employed. In my mind, this leads to spoilt little brats. I have been whacked on the *** when I was a kid, and didn't like it one bit. At the time. But I have never been a spoilt brat, I can tell you.

 

Beyond the age of ten or so, I believe there is no point in Corporal Punishment at all. But before that, you're essentially dealing with barbarians, and barbaric methods need to be employed.

 

Any thoughts?

[ronthepon]

In my opinion, Corporeal punishment is something that must be handed out in rare cases, and the one who gives it must never let his anger show while handing it out. Rather, he must let the kid feel that he hates to resort to the method without saying it in the obvious.

 

In other words, don't make it the mainstream in punishment methods. Keep it aside, for medium sized offences.

 

I remember when I was around eight, I had developed a nasty habit of telling excellently disgused lies, and people rarely used to find me out. My dad had let me know that I was not doing the right thing, and gave me a few days to clean my self up.

As I refused to listen to him, I was whacked hard on the face, and he let me know (by body language) that he utterly hated doing it.

I doubt that I uttered a single lie for the rest of that year.

[Mercedes Benzene]

Corporal punishment is an interesting debate... and indeed there are good arguements both for and against it.

I think that corporal punishment does teach a lesson to little kids. Naturally, they associate poor behavior with pain of the "Daddy's gonna spank me on my butt" variety. :ud:

On the other hand, perhaps it just teaches kids that "violence" is an okay thing, and that later in life they can punish other people with pain of the "Dawg. You spreadin' **** about me. I'm gonna bust a cap on your ***" variety.

 

The interesting thing is that a lot of countries in Europe completely ban corporal punishment, yet most states in the US allow it.:eek:

Some states even allow the punishment in SCHOOLS! :beer: I could not imagine being spanked in school.

For these reasons, i have mixed feelings about this subject.

[Boerseun]

I wonder...

 

When I was in school, caning was a common form of punishment. This was up to the age of 18; granted - for kids in high school, caning was reserved for major offences only.

 

Caning, and any other form of corporal punishment have now been banned completely. And all the schools are complaining that discipline has gone for a ball of crap since. Fair enough, it could be said that discipline bred from fear isn't the best of ideas, but hey - in a class of 30-odd kids, it got the job done. And those kids who didn't cause any problems, kids who were there to learn and not cause a ruckus, ultimately benefitted from it.

 

I think saying that a slap on the bum will necessarily lead to the cappin' of some homie's *** is a bit of an oversimplification. A slap on the bum will define the authority your dad/mom has over you when you're at the age where they can't really explain it to you otherwise - your mind hasn't developed to the point yet where you can follow a big argument or explanation.

 

Corporal punishment? I'm all for it. Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

[ronthepon]

When I was in school, caning was a common form of punishment. This was up to the age of 18; granted - for kids in high school, caning was reserved for major offences only.

 

Atleast you guys have rules. Here, they cane us even if it's against the law.

 

Fair enough, it could be said that discipline bred from fear isn't the best of ideas, but hey - in a class of 30-odd kids, it got the job done. And those kids who didn't cause any problems, kids who were there to learn and not cause a ruckus, ultimately benefitted from it.

Well... that's fine till an extent. Last year, our chem teacher suddenly decided that the boys needed some moral re-wiring (he'd caught some of my mates doing immoral acts) and began to use his enormous hands on us. Gosh, he was scaring me shitless. And hell, I was probably the (second) nicest guy in the whole school.

 

It's fine if it's not used as an apparatus for in-school terror(ism). I hated the murderous procedures he did on the boys. Can you imagine throwing NaOH on a guy's feet after catching his barefoot on the football feild?

 

We were not brave enough to complain, (our principal was a old cowardly dweeb and we feared for his life as well) and had to resort to the 'Oh please! Oh please!' kind of thing.

 

In the end, he achieved nothing. The dudes still had BPs in their mobiles, they still saw BFs.

 

Ahem... I seem to have gone too far with my sob stories.

 

I think saying that a slap on the bum will necessarily lead to the cappin' of some homie's *** is a bit of an oversimplification. A slap on the bum will define the authority your dad/mom has over you when you're at the age where they can't really explain it to you otherwise - your mind hasn't developed to the point yet where you can follow a big argument or explanation.

That... is a perfect justification of the use in my opinion. But as I said earlier, it must not, not, and not be overdone.

 

 

Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

 

Actually, not all schools are falling apart.

I had been to a school (twelve in all, BTW) where they focussed on good treatment of the students, 'catching them young', givingthem good habits, good conduct mindsets since the KG level and the separation of bad apples.

 

That was a good school, it's a pity I don't remember much.

[CraigD]

Corporal Punishment.

 

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?

As with most discussion of subjects that I (and likely most people) have personally experienced, often in a state emotional turmoil, I think it’s important to separate feeling, wishes, and anecdotes from scientific theory and objective observation.

 

Avoiding sentimental terms, “raising kids” means shaping the behavior of juvenile H.Sapiens. We (the parent) have a pre-determined collection of desirable behaviors (academic success, willingly helping with household chores, calm under stress, etc.) we want our kids to exhibit, and a collection of undesirable ones (physically attacking others, stealing, panic and debilitating fear under stress, etc.). Based on some theory – scientific or “common sense” – we interact in certain ways in order to shape our kids to maximize the occurrence of behavior from the desirable collection, and minimize the occurance of ones from the undesirable collection.

 

As people who have actually been parents will attest, this is easier said than done.

 

IMHO, theory and evidence fail to support a determination that, independent of a larger collection of behavior shaping techniques, corporal punishment should absolutely be used, not be used, or the frequency with which it should be used. Human children, even in their first years, are very behaviorally complicated, reacting to purposeful and accidental influences in both predictable and very unpredictable ways.

 

Rather than attempt to answer the question “should corporal punishment be used” separately from other considerations, it’s more useful, IMHO, to consider a few more general child (and, in general, social animal) psychological principles. I think the following are among the most important

• Like most social animals, human beings are approval-seeking. Parenting approaches that exploit this by focusing on praising children for desired behaviors are effective.
  
• Behavior can’t be shaped if the kid is unable to associate the reinforcer (praise or punishment) with the behavior being encouraged or discouraged. Parenting approaches that confuse kids are ineffective.
  
• intermittent reinforcement is more effective in shaping long-lasting behavior than continuous reinforcement. Parenting approaches that don’t always reward or punish a behavior are more effective than those that do.
  

Using these and other psychological principles, it appears to me that it’s less important if a parent uses or does not use paddling, than how they use it and other techniques, such as praise and “time out”. When used as part of a well-understood, carefully-administered parenting program, I believe approaches that don’t include corporal punishment and those that do are equally effective, as well as can be measured.

 

Unfortunately, many parents fail to understand or be careful in their parenting approaches, or even consciously consider that their interaction with their children constitutes an approach. Reckless praise or reckless punishment can be equally ineffective in raising human beings with desired adult behaviors.

Caning, and any other form of corporal punishment have now been banned completely. And all the schools are complaining that discipline has gone for a ball of crap since.

”Parenting” by school staff is complicated, because school staff are usually not aware of factors shaping a particular child’s behavior. One child may be chastised by a paddling into begin a model student, while another will increase the targeted bad behavior in proportion to the punishment. Rarely, a child may suffer mental trauma leading to mental illness. On rare occasion, a child will seize the paddle and beat the teacher bloody, a scene I witnessed in my school days in 1970s US (In the 70s US, many teachers who paddled used a heavy, shaped “board” given to them by their college fraternity or sorority. These paddles typically bear the signatures of their fraternity or sorority brothers and sisters, covered with a nice lacquer finish. Edge-on, they make surprising fierce weapons).

 

I think schools are correct in eliminating corporal punishment. They should be sure to let custodial parents know of any problems that occurring in school, and leave it to the parent to punish their children as they see fit.

Our schools are now falling apart because they have banned corporal punishment without providing a suitable alternative.

I’m not aware of data from Boersen’s schools, but in the US, the often expressed idea that the schools are “falling apart” due to student behavior is not supported by evidence. As measured by the per-student incidence of violent crime, schools have, along with the population as a whole, seen a marked decrease in such problems over the last 50 years. Sadly, many people believe the opposite, in large part, I think, because news outlets focus excessively on the most disturbing school problems, ignoring statistics and the laudable records of good behavior in most schools.

[Ganoderma]

Although I agree mostly with what is said, I have to say I am not willing to let a school physically harm my child. As Chris Tucker said in Rush Hour (I think that’s the movie) "Every scratch in my car is a scratch in your a**" Same goes for my kids, or even nephews/nieces.

 

I am a teacher and the bigger the class the harder it is to discipline (although I was always first to whine about how whiny teachers are about working too much, but it really limits the education quality). I have NEVER hit a kid, even though parents here instruct me that I SHOULD do it. My boss says to use the ruler or a plastic hammer, fellow teachers say to do the same. Many parents here say “Be mean, it’s the only way they will listen.” It is a very common tool to raising kids here. As far as I am concerned if you can’t teach a kid with words, don’t be a teacher. Other tools like relocating certain kids to certain classes is my best tool for eliminating problems and letting the "good" kids advance at a faster rate. It *can* be a useful tool in discipline but is rarely used proper or in appropriate circumstances.

 

I guess my main problem is you are having a stranger punish your children because they did something that he/she (the stranger) did not agree with. Perhaps this is not your beliefs and would then not only confuse but put the child in a very difficult spot (which one is right? Why is it ok to say this word at home and not at school….there are many possible religious incidents as well). I think at home, it has its place. It does not belong in the school system, although I agree that, especially North American, schools need some far better methods to discipline a child. But it is a little hard to say what is right. The school right could be far different from the home right. Should the child be punished for being home right at school?

[paigetheoracle]

Corporal Punishment.

 

What's you take on it? In raising kids, and in general?

...

Any thoughts?

 

Personally I'm against corporal punishment - why don't sergeants get hit as well?

 

No but seriously - in Britain we have a saying, save the rod, spoil the child. I don't think this means you should beat them to a pulp but who are parents, who don't use corporal punishment, trying to impress? Kids who walk all over you, so that 'you' can appear Mr Nice Guy, then in turn walk all over society. Parents should not try to be popular anymore than politicians as without discipline control (form) collapses and chaos rules: Remember, heroes are considered criminals by villians because they thwart their plans - so morally, should you let them torture, maim and kill because you want to be liked by them?

 

Does that mean parents and kids shouldn't play with each other? No but you've got to both be in the state for it and on top of this kids should be encouraged to play their part in the household as it makes them feel worthwhile and a part of the team, rather than outsiders with no useful role in life.

 

As Robert Frost said "Good fences make good neighbours". Without boundaries and privacy, kids feel they have no rights, no life of their own and it's usually such kids who feel they don't exist, that go out to prove more than any other that they do, through vandalism and violent crime ("You hate me? Well I hate you more and first!" attitude).

[InfiniteNow]

Punishment just teaches you how to get away with things.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/social-sciences/5781-whats-better-than-punishment.html

[Freddy]

The last time I checked 22 states allowed corporal punishment in their schools. That was several years ago.

[Rebiu]

Hell I even spank my wife.

[Boerseun]

Hell I even spank my wife.

Like they say, the only thing worse than a male chauvinist is a damn woman who don't know her place... :hyper:

[infamous]

I remember spanking my daughter only three times in the years we spent together as a family. She was very well behaved and needed very little correction. Nevertheless, it is, on occasion, necessary to correct a child when they misbehave. She is grown now and I'm quite proud of the splendid citizen she has become. The justification I feel now for these actions was expressed eloquently by my daughter herself. On or about her 30th birthday she and her son were visiting me for Thanksgiving dinner. As is custom, everyone at the table was to give thanks for the blessings they had received in their lives. When my daughters turn came, she had this to say:

 

"I'm thankful for a father that loved me enough to correct me. And even though I know it was difficult for him to spank me, he made the effort with the expectation in mind that I would be the better for it. For this I am thankful Dad."

 

It's easy to make excuses why spanking is not necessary, and in some cases, it may not be. However, when the parent is forced into making a difficult point, it may be the only effective measure. And if done in love, as my daughter has proven, it will eventually be appreciated...........Infy

[TheBigDog]

Spanking is just one tool in the toolbox parents have for raising kids. Like a metric crescent wrench, it has specifc applications where it is most appropriate. And like any powerful tool you must use it carefully so that it doesn't do unwanted harm.

 

I was spanked as a kid, I have spanked my kids. The one rule that I try and follow most stricktly is the one Ron mentioned, and that is don't spank angry. Spanking is not an outlet for pent up rage or aggression. It is a method of enforcing consequences for crossing predetermined boudaries. My kids have never been spanked for doing something that they didn't suspect would get them a spanking if they got caught. I say suspect, because it is impossible to communicate every nuance of behavior that will result in a spanking. You draw some simple lines, and when those lines get crossed the kid gets whacks.

 

The number and intesnity of those whacks varies with the reason for the spanking. And as a parent you need to gage who it is that you are spanking. A tiny little person does not need adult strength unloaded on them to get the message. I personally never use any kind of paddle or belt. I spank bare handed and I do so because I hate doing it, and I hate the feeling of my hand hurting after laying a few whacks on a belligerent backside. If it is painless for me then it is too easy to do it without thought. And I put a great deal of thought into the process of correcting a kid before it ends up in spankings.

 

When I was a kid my dad used to tell the neighbors it was OK to spank me if I was ever bad, that he would give me more when I got home. I tell you, that always had me thinking twice. Like any kid I got away with what I could, but that extra threat of a tanning prevented me from doing some really stupid **** in my day. And I agree with InfiniteNow to a point that it only makes kids more clever in finding ways to get away with things. But in having to be more clever it is reducing the ease of committing spankable mischief.

 

As a parent I find that the trick with spankings is that it is part of the battle of wills. If you do not have a trump card to play then your kids WILL rule you. They have to know that they will never be more stubborn than you. And other forms of correction can be frigging exhausting to see to the end. Ever try to ground a kid for a couple of weeks, and then get so exasperated by having them underfoot becasue they are not allowed outside that you end the punishment just to get some alone time? What lesson comes with that. I knew so many kids who knew that their parents would never follow through any punishment to the end. But a spanking is a spanking. The message gets through and you can get on with life without having to act like a prison warden for days and weeks on end.

 

Another thing with kids. Never threaten something that you are not going to do. Don't tell them you are going to kill them, or break their fingers, or other such nonsense, because it teaches them to doubt your word. If you tell them you are going to do something you need to do it. So you need to say things that you can and will do. When I tell one of my kids they are going to get spanked, they sure as hell believe it, and they rarely push the matter any further. And if they do test my word they learn again how reliable I am as a father.

 

Boerseun mentioned that the removal of corporal punishment in schools has lead to mayhem in the schools. And Craig counters this with statistics of school violence being down. I would say that both are right, but that this is a case of statistics not telling the whole story. While violence as measured by statistics may be down, the way that children behave in terms of acting respectfully to adults is not just down, it is in many cases gone. As we take the disiplinary teeth out of the schools, and sue or fire those good administrators who would try and preserve an environment of respect and disipline by whacking some kids who get out of line we erode the ability to do anything but cajole the kids back into being good. I remember wanting desperatly as a little kid for my teachers to like me. And they only had to show disappointment with me to get me emotionally back in line. And when I was in Jr High the hint that my parent may be called about something was the worst case scenario. Because my parents were in cahoots with my teachers, and if my teachers told my parents I was misbehaving I would get punished for it but good. Now more often than not when a kid misbehaves in school there is a conference where the teachers try and find out why is gthe kid acting out, is there something that they could do differently or better at school? And in many cases the kids typical survival lie about events turns into accusations of unfairness against the teachers, and they, instead of being a partner with the parents in educating the kids, become a service that will do as it is told, and will just have to deal with Jr's outbursts, and don't make me have to come here and talk to you again because you can't deal with kids. I tell every one of my kids' teachers (in front of the kids) that they have my permission to whack em as hard as they need to if they get out of line. They ususally laugh, but I am dead serious. I trust them as professionals that they would not do it unless all other options had been exhausted. And if my kid brings a teacher to that point, then they are without question acting way out of line.

 

If anything the schools are too scared of the kids. My little guy is in pre-school. He just turned 4. I was picking him up from school last month one day and the teacher stopped to explain to me and my wife that he had been running when he tripped and fell, and that if had made a small mark on his face where he bumped. I could barely see the mark, it was right on the scar under his eye where he had gotten the seven stitches when he crashed face first into the coffee table. After showing us the mark they noted that it had not slowed him down, and that he was "all boy". Then they got out the peice of paper detailing the incident, and that they had explained to us how he had gotten the mark on his face. And we had to sign the paper to acknowlede the conversation. I was dumbfounded. When they mentioned that he had fallen down and bumped his face my first through was "so what?". He was obvioulsy not hurt. But in this age of litigation not even the smallest of things can go undocumented. Imagine what I would have had to sign if she had hit him!

 

So a few weeks earlier little #4 had gotten his little but tanned one night for having a fit for several hours because I would not let him sleep in my bed. Again, the battle of wills. He was told that he was not allowed to sleep with us, and he wanted to. So he had a prolonged fit. And it went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Shannon tucked him in a few times. I tucked him in. His brother was crying because he couldn't sleep because of the noise. This began at about 11:00 PM. At about 2:15 AM it was still going, and I decided that it was time to end. I got out of bed and carried him by an arm back into his bed. I poked him in the chest and told him that if he didn't shut up right now and go to sleep on his bed he would get spanked. This was met with the defiant and screaming "I want to sleep in mommy's bed!" He was really angry and was clearly believing that he was going to get what he wanted. Unfortunatly for him I get what I want, and the kids get what they want when I permit it. So I flipped him over and gave him two whacks on the butt and flipped him back. I poked him in the chest again and told him that he was going to shut up right that second so everyone else could sleep, and that he was going to sleep on his bed, and that meant not another word! "Do you understand me?" And he shouted "I want to sleep on mommy's bed!" And I flipped him over again, and I gave him a really hard whack on the butt. It was that magical moment when you can actually see the wax come shooting out of their ears and suddenly everything you are saying begins to make sense to them again. When I flipped him back over he was holding his breath and sucking his lips into his mouth in an effort to stop himself from uttering another sound. I asked him "Are you going to be quite now?" Nods. "Are you going to sleep on your bed now?" Nods. "Good night #4." And I went to bed miserable with a stinging hand. He woke me up the next morning like he does every day by jumping on me and giving me a big hug. Now the point of this is not to glorify the night terrors that I visit upon my kids. #4 knows that he does not have to fear me. Quite the opposite, he trusts me completely. But he knows that there is a line of conduct that he should not cross. And he learns to respect and deal with that boundary through the consistant feedback he gets from me. But the real point of this story is that I left a hand print on his butt with that last whack. If you saw his bare butt there is was clear as day. And Shannon kept him home from school because of that handprint. I have no problem telling anyone what happened. But cultural fear of litigation that is getting stronger and stronger in society forces us to hide what should otherwise be uneventful events as part of raising a family. If for any reason the school had seen a red handprint on his butt they would have been compelled to report it to family services, and I may have ended up in court defending my right to keep my children.

 

Now speaking of family services. There was a time when #2 was committed to an institution for a week (for reasons that this post is already far to long to get into). During a family counciling session required for getting him let out the topic of corporal punishment came up, and gave me a rare opportunity to sound off to "the man". This very good intentioned woman councelor was breifing us on techniques for avoiding extreme emotional situations. Part of her spiel was that violence or physical contact was never an appropriate solution for problems. I very firmly told her that her statement was fine for her in determining how she ran her household, but it was inappropriate to tell me about running my household. That I had spanked the kids, and I would continue to spank the kids when I saw fit, and that I did not give her permission to tell them otherwise. She quickly moved on to the next topic. My wife was so mortified that I would ever say that in front of a person from the government. But I am not about to lie to protect myself from what is not a crime. That would earn me a spanking.

 

Bill

[GAHD]

"CP" Was not used on me as a child and I like to think I turned out fine.

 

In fact, I was taught to respond to any such actions in kind

EG The neighbor tried to muscle me around because he didn't like the way I acted on the sidewalk in front of "my" house; he got a shot to the apple (courtesy of being picked up to his face-height) and a kick to the back of the knee(while coughing) for his efforts.

 

 

Kids should be taught self-defense, so that "cp" is actually used in it's proper place; By the defender at the time of defense.

[InfiniteNow]

From personal experience as the recipient:

 

Spanking should never be an outlet for a parent's frustration or anger.

Spanking should never be used to placate the other parent.

Spanking should only be done by a step-parent if that step-parent takes on all other roles of parenthood.

Spanking has it's place, and is definitely more effective when used sparingly.

Spanking is better done with monkeys...

 

 

EDIT: BigDog covered point 1 already. Also, good job. Calm assertiveness, not choking but mimicking the bite of the mother with your hand... :lol:

[Rebiu]

From personal experience as the recipient:

 

Spanking should never be an outlet for a parent's frustration or anger.

Spanking should never be used to placate the other parent.

Spanking should only be done by a step-parent if that step-parent takes on all other roles of parenthood.

Spanking has it's place, and is definitely more effective when used sparingly.

Spanking is better done with monkeys...

 

 

EDIT: BigDog covered point 1 already. Also, good job. Calm assertiveness, not choking but mimicking the bite of the mother with your hand... :)

How about terrifying the child by espousing you belief in homicidal retribution for suspected sexual transgressions committed against them or are they supposed to think that is as :) :phones: :hihi: :eek: as you do? Would that be acceptable.