Was Jesus Married?

[Cedars]

Follow-up to post #41:

 

A pretty good essay The sexuality and marital status of Jesus (idea)

Snippets:

The most notable example is Christmas, whose date was decided at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. ... The bishops at Nicea decided to keep the festival, but change its meaning. Thus, the birth of the sun god became the birth of the son OF God.

 

In the original Christian Church, the Sabbath was on Saturday. At the Council of Nicea, the Sabbath was moved to the next day: SUNday, which literally means "day of the sun."

 

Two more important events occurred at the Council of Nicea. First, rules were set in place establishing the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. This paved the way for the church to control all aspects of religious life. Second, it was at the Council of Nicea where Jesus was declared - by vote - to "be a god and not a mortal prophet." With the status of deity, the way was clear for the Church to declare itself the sole link between men and God.

 

The next major council was the Council of Carthage in 397. It was here that the Bible began to be assembled. The original plan for the New Testament was to have all of the Gospels that were written by the apostles of Jesus. Now, there is no argument that John and Matthew were apostles. On the other hand, Thomas and Philip both were members of the original twelve. Yet the Church declared both Gospels in their names to be heresy, and ordered them burned.

 

The Catholic Church issued the Apostolic Constitutions in 1143, in which women were formally excluded from positions of power in the Church by the following statement.

 

"We do not permit our women to teach in the Church, only to pray and to hear those who teach. Our master, when he sent us the twelve, did nowhere send out a woman; for the head of the woman is the man, and it is not reasonable that the body should govern the head".

This statement by the Church is precisely why Thomas and Philip's Gospels were burned: They reveal that many women were active in the ministry of Christ. Philip makes it quite plain that "there were three who always walked with the Lord: Mary, his mother, and her sister, and Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary" (Philip 3.21).

 

How do scholars know this? Simply enough, copies of these "heretical" texts have been found. The most important discovery was found in Egypt in the December of 1945. Near the town of Nag Hammadi, a farming Arab found 13 leather-bound papyrus books in an earthenware jar. Upon examination, the codices were discovered to contain fifty-two sacred texts that were omitted from the Bible. The most notable were the Gospels of Thomas and Philip, but there were also several other books such as the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Truth, and The Sophia of Jesus Christ.

 

From the book of Philip:

 

As for the Wisdom who is called the barren she is the mother of the angels.And the companion of the Saviour is Mary Magdalene. But Christ loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss her often on the mouth. The rest of the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to him Why do you love her more than all of us?

 

More of the deleted books:

Apocrypha: New Testament Apocrypha, the missing books of the Bible

 

Another website with some the above: Nag Hammadi Library

[TheFaithfulStone]

Phillip, Thomas and Mary were all Gnostic texts. Even at the time of the Council of Chalcedon, the Gnostics were kind of a fringe group of Christianity. It is still interesting though, how all of the Gnostic gospels seem to agree on at least the fact that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a "special" relationship.

 

I don't think this is absent in the rest of the text either.

 

To LayDomincan - I ask again - How does it diminish the teaches of Jesus if he was married? How does it diminish them if he was gay?

 

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?"

 

37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'

 

38 This is the first and great commandment.

 

39 A second likewise is this,'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

 

40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

 

Jesus marriage has no bearing on these commandments. Nor does his sexual preference.

 

In fact, it could be (and should be, perhaps) argued that the Jesus of history has little to no bearing on the Jesus Christ of Christianity.

 

TFS

[Southtown]

To LayDomincan - I ask again - How does it diminish the teaches of Jesus if he was married? How does it diminish them if he was gay?

Cuz he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Either he was right and divine, or he was wrong and deceptive.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Cuz he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Either he was right and divine, or he was wrong and deceptive.

 

Okay, you'll have to explain to me how that matters.

 

TFS

[Southtown]

Just look at some of the things he taught.

"

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;

" --

John 11:25 asv

 

"

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

" --

Mark 8:31 asv

 

"

Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

" --

John 6:35 asv

Unless you were referring specifically to his morality.

[LayDominican]

Cedars

 

It is your post that sparks so many angry responses from hardline Catholics/Christians. you do not believe in the 4 Gospels but if any work comes along that may disprove them for certain you and others like you jump all over them. Jesus would kiss Magdalene fully on the lips, so says Phillip. The Apostle John, who may have known Jesus better than anyone never mentions anything of the kind. Luke, who many believe got his information from Mary the Mother of Jesus, never mentions it.

 

Once again, I would ask you to look to the great minds of the Church and again none of them mention anything at all about Jesus being married or having somekind of affair with the Magdalene or anyone else. I will take the traditions and teachings of the Church which is over 2,000yrs old.

[cwes99_03]

Phillip, Thomas and Mary were all Gnostic texts. Even at the time of the Council of Chalcedon, the Gnostics were kind of a fringe group of Christianity. It is still interesting though, how all of the Gnostic gospels seem to agree on at least the fact that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a "special" relationship.

 

I don't think this is absent in the rest of the text either.

 

To LayDomincan - I ask again - How does it diminish the teaches of Jesus if he was married? How does it diminish them if he was gay?

 

Matthew 22:36-40

 

Jesus marriage has no bearing on these commandments. Nor does his sexual preference.

 

In fact, it could be (and should be, perhaps) argued that the Jesus of history has little to no bearing on the Jesus Christ of Christianity.

 

TFS

 

Cuz he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Either he was right and divine, or he was wrong and deceptive.

 

Okay, you'll have to explain to me how that matters.

 

TFS

 

TFS, I'm not sure what point you're trying to get at. I suspect that you are trying to make the point that it doesn't matter who says what as long as human eyes can see that it is plain and good. This takes the teachings out of the realm of religion and into the realm of philosophy.

To a christian, stating that Jesus was married, or that he was gay does the following things:

1) It states that the canonized gospels aren't complete, that they purposefully left things out to save the name and works of Jesus from some sort of shame or marring. This then brings into question all the scriptures.

2) However, another part of the Bible says that all scriptures are inspired of God. If God inspired them, and they don't contain information that Jesus was married, when he actually was, then God becomes suspect. It is on this basis that many still want others to believe Jesus was married. It also provides support to the Apocryphal writings, which make numerous other of basis claims, such as Judas did not betray Jesus, but was following his command when he sold him off for 30 silver pieces and then hung himself, that there is a load of secret teachings that only a select few should be allowed to know that contain the whole truth about Jesus and his ministry (mysticism), that women held equal status in all christian activities, etc.

3) Furthermore, it brings up gnostic teachings that Jesus and Mary had a child and that somehow his perfection was passed on to another generation (in the same way that Jesus was born perfect of an imperfect woman) and that this man or one of his offspring still lives on earth today.

4) Also, it lends support to the gnostic teaching that God still lives on earth today in the form of one of these decendents and that he only shares his (true) teachings with those he deems capable of understanding them.

 

All of these have one underlying statement, that the rest of the books of the Bible are suspect, incomplete, and full of lies.

Of course, the Bible books state that Jesus was incorruptible, that his sole purpose for living on earth was to teach the truth about his father, to show the Jews where they went wrong, to spread the teaching to as many Jews as he could while on earth (not just select ones), and then to die so that his perfect life might be offered as a ransom for all mankind (not just the Jews). For his ransom to be capable of redeeming mankind he had to die as a perfect man, since Adam was perfect when he fell into sin and thus spread sin to all of his offspring. I don't know if I can say whether or not marriage would have made him imperfect, but certainly lieing about it, or having his apostles lie about it would.

 

As to the whole Jesus was Gay comment, proferred I believe by Turtle, I have not heard any suggestion as to the basis of this claim.

I can say that if he was Gay then the same problems exist as above. It would suggest that he was not who he claimed to be, there would be no basis then for any of the christian scriptures as they would all be based off of a lie, and it is tantamount to saying God doesn't exist, as that would invalidate the basis for all the Hebrew scriptures in a like fashion.

[LayDominican]

I read the rules of this site, and it has stated no preaching, so I am cut off from that point of view. So I must just speak from the hip. If Jesus were married and/or bi, it was do alot of damage to the figure of who Jesus is, of what kind of teacher he was, and finally, as someone has pointed out, the 4 Gospels would have to be questioned as to what they left out or what the Church decided to cut out of the Gospels. In other words it would turn Christianity on its ear.

 

But, and this is a big but, I dont believe Jesus was married nor carried on with Mary Magdalene. I dont believe in a single word of the Gnostic style Gospels.The Gospel of Judas is a joke. James and Thomas and Mary Magdalene whould be seen as what they were. Attempts to disgrace Jesus in some way.Within the Dominican Order there have been great minds who have gone over the Scriptures and have taught the truth on what they read and came to believe.That is one of the reasons that there is always a Dominican as the Papal theologian. The finding of these gnostic books do not amount to much. It just serves those who dont believe anyway. In a ruch to judgement they embrace these books as evidence that the scriptures and the Church have been lying to the people all these centuries.

This is my personal opinion and not of the Church or of my Order.I must point out here that I am a lay member of the Dominican Order as is my wife. All that I have know and was taught came to me by way of Father McCabe, who died a few years ago.He was my spiritual advisor, teacher, and more important he was a great friend who taught me for over 10 yrs in the way of the Domincans and how to approach problems like this.

 

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."...Albert Einstein

[InfiniteNow]

To a christian, stating that Jesus was married, or that he was gay does the following things:

1) It states that the canonized gospels aren't complete, that they purposefully left things out to save the name and works of Jesus from some sort of shame or marring. This then brings into question all the scriptures.

2) However, another part of the Bible says that all scriptures are inspired of God. If God inspired them, and they don't contain information that Jesus was married, when he actually was, then God becomes suspect. It is on this basis that many still want others to believe Jesus was married. It also provides support to the Apocryphal writings, which make numerous other of basis claims, such as Judas did not betray Jesus, but was following his command when he sold him off for 30 silver pieces and then hung himself, that there is a load of secret teachings that only a select few should be allowed to know that contain the whole truth about Jesus and his ministry (mysticism), that women held equal status in all christian activities, etc.

3) Furthermore, it brings up gnostic teachings that Jesus and Mary had a child and that somehow his perfection was passed on to another generation (in the same way that Jesus was born perfect of an imperfect woman) and that this man or one of his offspring still lives on earth today.

4) Also, it lends support to the gnostic teaching that God still lives on earth today in the form of one of these decendents and that he only shares his (true) teachings with those he deems capable of understanding them.

Yes, because once you're classified as Christian, all other individual differences become irrelevant. :beer:

 

 

Come on, people. You're blinded by your own interpretation, and the moment you forget that, you concede your authority on the subject. Jesus could have had sex with antelope? What's it matter? It doesn't really. Only does to those who fail to see present matters in the world with greater import.

 

 

[Long deep breath] Marriage itself is open for interpretation, as is the concept and/or person referred to as Jesus. There are infinite possibilities as to what it means if Jesus was or was not married, the true issue is what it means to you. If you approach the world before you with certainty, and consider your own perspective absolute, then you'll lose out on much of the richness of your existence. It's an interesting topic to debate, was Jesus married, but the moment you support your position emotively and without consideration of fault, you've closed your mind and your belief system is less robust. [/Long deep breath]

[cwes99_03]

iNow, do you speak as a christian, or is this spoken of from a modern philosophical/christian standpoint.

 

To a follower of christ (a man who was perfect, had great power to perform miracles, had superior teaching ability, and was the son of God) it makes the difference.

 

Without these things being true, then all christianity is, is another philosophy of men.

[InfiniteNow]

I speak as myself, just any practitioner of any faith would as well.

 

Without these things being true, then all christianity is, is another philosophy of men.

It is possible...

[LayDominican]

I really think this tread has run its course. All we are doing is trading what ifs or how abouts. This is going no where fast. Those whho are Catholic/Christian will stay close to the teachings and dogmas of their faith. Those who dont believe in those teaches etc will not buy into .

[InfiniteNow]

I really think this tread has run its course. All we are doing is trading what ifs or how abouts. This is going no where fast. Those whho are Catholic/Christian will stay close to the teachings and dogmas of their faith. Those who dont believe in those teaches etc will not buy into .

 

Welcome to the Theology forum, LD. :doh:

[LayDominican]

I am a Roman Catholic and believe in the teachings of my Church and in the writings of her defenders. From the Early Church Fathers to Aquinas to the present Pope, there has been many great minds that have studied the life of the Christ and have not backed off any of his teachings or the way he lived.

 

Now along comes some books that say this and that, and all of a sudden, we are getting questioned by what ifs and if he is gay or bi what ever.I will stay the course and keep my faith. You may say I am closed minded. And that would be far from the truth.

[cwes99_03]

Just be certain to adhere to the scriptural advice LD

 

5 Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith, keep proving what YOU yourselves are. Or do YOU not recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with YOU? Unless YOU are disapproved. 6 I truly hope YOU will come to know we are not disapproved.

[LayDominican]

The believer must constantly check what it is they believe in and how one must live that faith in a world that is becoming more and more secular in nature.Religion in the West, since the scandels in the Roman Catholic Church, has taken some very heavy hits. Some of them fair and some of them not. Being a believer is a tougher path to travel.

[cwes99_03]

Where do you hail from LD?