Was Jesus Married?

[Turtle]

Turtle,

 

I am tired of reading that because of some lost manuscripts that mention Jesus was married or Jesus was bi- or Jesus was somekind of magician. These books could have been written to discredit the new religion and not to enhance it. As a Roman Catholic I tire of all of this dirt being kicked on my Faith and the teachings of my Church. You ending paragraph may have made you laugh, but to me it angered me. However, I respect the rules of this site, and will not preach. I will not answer you lewd charges towards Jesus. Believe whatever you may, but at least have some respect for what someone might believe.

 

The contention of magic is my own exegesis, and I have not seen sources claiming it; however I wouldn't be surprised if they are extant.

 

I don't find it half as funny as I find it sad. I am more inclined to have some pity on you as the development of neuro-theology is proffering explanations for superstitious belief of all ilks. I have respect for reason, not superstition, and I will counter superstition at every opportunity. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I look forward to your assessment of the show InfiniteNow brought to our attention. :shrug: :D

[LayDominican]

Turtle

 

I don't care about you being sad. I don't care really what you have to say,now, about my religion. But what I want to know, where is your solid evidence that Jesus was just a clever mage? That he may have been bi? that he was married? Oh, that's right, you read it in a book. A book that may or may not have been written by the person you think wrote it. And everything in these books is true. Give me a break.

[Turtle]

Turtle

 

I don't care about you being sad. I don't care really what you have to say,now, about my religion. But what I want to know, where is your solid evidence that Jesus was just a clever mage? That he may have been bi? that he was married? Oh, that's right, you read it in a book. A book that may or may not have been written by the person you think wrote it. And everything in these books is true. Give me a break.

 

And where, pray tell, are you getting your information? Oh yeah, a single book.

[Southtown]

A compilation of books, actually. Matt. thru Rev.

[LayDominican]

Turtle,

 

First, if you think that any Dominican begins and ends his studies from one book, then maybe you should be called a turtle. The question I asked of you, is where do you get your information about Jesus from? Where is your evidence? How do you know without a doubt that Jesus was married, that he was bi? That he was just a very clever mage?Could be from books that we written by bitter people who witness their brand of religion loosing out to the truth. Ah, but I am sure you have read more books than just those that support your views. So, again, I will ask you were did you get you so called solid evidence about Jesus.And try to answer before Sunday, if you dont mind.

[Turtle]

Turtle,

 

First, if you think that any Dominican begins and ends his studies from one book, then maybe you should be called a turtle. The question I asked of you, is where do you get your information about Jesus from? Where is your evidence? How do you know without a doubt that Jesus was married, that he was bi? That he was just a very clever mage?Could be from books that we written by bitter people who witness their brand of religion loosing out to the truth. Ah, but I am sure you have read more books than just those that support your views. So, again, I will ask you were did you get you so called solid evidence about Jesus.And try to answer before Sunday, if you dont mind.

 

Of course I should be called Turtle; what a silly retort. ;) To clarify, nowhere here have I said anything 'without a doubt', and in fact quite the contrary as I am saying there is considerable doubt as to any 'proof' of any thing about Jesus.

 

I detect a bit of bitterness in your request, but I don't mind saying a few of the books I have read concerning Jesus or ancient texts. I suppose there is the Bible of course in several of its variations, the Book of Morman, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, the Urantia Book, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Biblical Archaeology magazine, Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth, Bhagavad Gita to name just a few. Oh, and how about that Enoch? Oooops...isn't that only in the Eastern Orthodox Bible? Seems too I recall the Bhudists claim Jesus visited. Of course I won't ask you to reciprocate or comment on these writings as you have stated you discount anything but your own truth out of hand.

 

I refer you again to the subject of neurotheology and respectfully suggest you may want to have your temporal lobe imaged. After all, it's truth we're after here, and like gold it is wherever one finds it. And lets not forget the Catholic church burning all those witches shall we? How perfectly peaceful, logical, justifiable, and humble a behavior. Just the kind of activites Jesus taught. Makes me want to sign up my grandsons to be alter boys. Of course the Church apologized to Galileo after 400 years, so that makes up for it all. Certainly made it easier to justify the slaughter of the Aztecs and burning of their sacred writings eh? The list goes on ad nauseum in regards to the splendiferous reputation of religions throughout history. Fine club you belong to there Lay. :doh:

 

So, how bought if by Sunday you pray up an angel or miracle to show me the error of my ways? :cup: :cup:

[LayDominican]

I have already seen some of the scenes in this NatG special. And once again we hear of the same old wives tales. The body of Jesus was stolen. That as a child, Jesus may made clay mounds on the sabbath, and we called on it , he made the mounds turn to birds. And then we see Jesus and Peter kneeling at the foot of the cross and Jesus said he faked his death. Just more and more of the same tales.Because the National Geographic has put its monkier on it, it must be true,right?

 

I still believe that these are books written by people who wanted to disprove the New Christianity and the true teachings of the Apostles. How anyone can tell me that the Apostles had the smarts to steal the body of Christ, get Chrit's mother to agree, and on the strength of a lie go to the deaths for a religion that was false.

[Turtle]

I have already seen some of the scenes in this NatG special. And once again we hear of the same old wives tales. The body of Jesus was stolen. That as a child, Jesus may made clay mounds on the sabbath, and we called on it , he made the mounds turn to birds. And then we see Jesus and Peter kneeling at the foot of the cross and Jesus said he faked his death. Just more and more of the same tales.Because the National Geographic has put its monkier on it, it must be true,right?

 

I still believe that these are books written by people who wanted to disprove the New Christianity and the true teachings of the Apostles. How anyone can tell me that the Apostles had the smarts to steal the body of Christ, get Chrit's mother to agree, and on the strength of a lie go to the deaths for a religion that was false.

 

Just because the pope puts his stamp on something, it must be true, right? Belief is the key word here, so a definition seems apt.

Assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge; reliance upon word or testimony; partial or full assurance without positive knowledge or absolute certainty; persuasion; conviction; confidence; as, belief of a witness; the belief of our senses.

Now unless you are claiming personal knowledge of Jesus, i.e. claiming you were there, then you only offer opinion in what you say. Moreover, that opinion is based on writings and rewritings from 2,000 years ago which as we know have been under constant debate as to accuracy since their inception. So in the absence of personal knowledge, your belief carries no more weight than mine.

As to the smarts of people in those days, I have to ask do you know how to change a staff into a snake? The Bible says (and I presume then you believe it) Moses and the Egyptian priests knew this trick and in fact say it is a trick, but unless you have personally learned this trick you can neither perform it or explain how it was done.

In closing I'd care to remind you this is a science site and so you shouldn't be surprised or miffed that you get scientific challenges. There is no end of religious web sites if you want slavish acceptance of your beliefs. :doh:

[InfiniteNow]

Everyone knows that the Pope is infallible, as is clearly evidenced by his recent apology to the Muslims.

[LayDominican]

IN,

 

I would have thought that you would have more knowledge in the workings of the Catholic Church and how we believe and what the process is involved in the making of such things as doctrine and dogma. The Pope is infallible when speaking, using sitting on the Chair of Peter, of matters of faith for the Church. But, like any other head of state, which the Pope is, he may speak on other matters as he sees them. The Pope is not infallible everytime he opens his mouth. Only Gnostics, Agnostics, and atheists are permitted that honor.

[Freddy]

IN,

 

I would have thought that you would have more knowledge in the workings of the Catholic Church and how we believe and what the process is involved in the making of such things as doctrine and dogma. The Pope is infallible when speaking, using sitting on the Chair of Peter, of matters of faith for the Church. But, like any other head of state, which the Pope is, he may speak on other matters as he sees them. The Pope is not infallible everytime he opens his mouth. Only Gnostics, Agnostics, and atheists are permitted that honor.

You actually believe that! This doctrine of Papal Infallibility is a 19th century dogma since 1870.

[TheBigDog]

Was Jesus married? Who gives a f*ck!? Could there be a less relavant topic? If people want to follow the teaching Jesus in the hope of a better life and after death experience... so what? Why try and invalidate it by arguing meaningless historical mumbo jumbo? All of it is just conjecture anyway.

 

"If you are going to pray do it so secretly that your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is doing. Don't be like the people who stand up in the aisle and shout their prayers. It is the thoughts in your heart that God hears and answers." - Something like that was someplace in Mathew.

 

Leave each other in peace. Don't spend so much energy trying to prove good people are stupid because of what the use as a moral guidepost.

 

"It is not important what goes into your mouth, but what comes out of it". Another Jesus Quote - more accurate than the last. Answering about rules of eathing certain foods on certain days. The lesson? Actions, including your words, are the most important thing. For those of you out there who believe in tolerance, why not start with tolerance of religion. Especially those who practice in quite dignety and peace.

 

Maybe it is better to post drunk? I am not a believer. But I believe in the good nature and intelligence of those who believe. The world is big enough for us to live together in harmony. Evil is a matter of actions, not of beliefs. Prosecute the actions, not the beliefs. I am nausiated my the intolerance I see here regarding believers. Thought police.

 

Bill

[Turtle]

I am nausiated my the intolerance I see here regarding believers. Thought police.

 

Bill

 

Well, here's my thought officer. I am equally nauseated by the cruelty, narrow-mindedness, and other applicable derogatives that believers have foisted on humanity for as long as we have records for, up to and including the very latest we have recorded here and in the world at large. To be labled intolerant of it is a badge I will gladly wear; in fact, give me the biggest one they have.

 

Post Script:

To put this in the historical perspective of Hypography, I point out that we only have a theology section because of the onslaught of believers attacking science that we sustained when the 'teaching creationism' issue arose a few months back. The decision was made in order to offer some flexibility and lighten the load on the staff, who continually had to intercept these non-scientific diatribes. I don't go out to religious forums and jam science down their throats, and I will vigorously challenge those coming here to jam their superstitious beliefs down ours.

[InfiniteNow]

The world is big enough for us to live together in harmony.

I hope so, Bill. I just don't really see the Earth's volume/surface area being the determining factor...

 

I don't go out to religious forums and jam science down their throats, and I will vigorously challenge those coming here to jam their superstitious beliefs down ours.

Nice point, Turtle. The strength in numbers motivation of those who pursue the conversion of others is almost viral.

 

As an aside, I was recently in 1/2 Priced Books (obviously, a book store) getting some reading for my holiday travel. Upon checking out, I struck up a brief conversation with the girl behind the counter. Something about her being a voyeur to other people's reading habits... and asked her what types of book's they'd been selling the most of. "Self-help and religious." To which I responded, "perhaps they'd help themselves the most if they put down the religious books?"

 

Bill, belief/faith and goodness in a person are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, all too often, belief/faith and absolutist close-minded thinking are inseperable.

[TheBigDog]

I think you missed my point, Turtle.

 

I am all for the defense of science within these hallowed threads. And I think I do my share of that defense.

 

A thread like this one has the purpose of deconstruction of religion. So it is posted up and acts as bait for outraged believers to come and argue.

 

Southtown seemed to very deftly answer to the initial question by demonstrating that the definitions framing the question were themselves in error. (post 14). The approach taken by most others was to poke fun at the very nature of religious belief. While this may be fun sport when bantering with some of the short timers who took the bait, it does nothing for the members of this forum who do practice religious faith to have those beliefs openly mocked with arguments that if made on behalf of religion would get them keel hauled.

 

The way I read it is this... many here believe that religion is by its nature a fallacy of logic. Therefore any argument supporting religion and faith is itself a false argument. But does that give permission to insinuate the stupidity and ignorance of those who believe for the sake of their belief?

 

I have engaged people for preaching, and trying to use Hypography a platform for conversion to one religion or another. That is how the rules are written. But why is it acceptable to allow the systematic deconstruction of religion and the agenda of elimination of religion? Conversion is conversion, be it to or from. One side's action in that game is no more noble than the other's.

 

And now for a musical number...

Boerseun: (Spoken) Against the Catholics we need every man we got.

 

Turtle: (Spoken) Gahd don't belong any more.

 

Boerseun: Cut it, Turtle boy. I and Gahd started the Atheists.

 

Turtle: Well, he acts like he don't wanna belong.

 

InfiniteNow: Who wouldn't wanna belong to the Atheists!

 

Turtle: Gahd ain't been with us for over a month.

 

TheFaithfulStone: What about the day we clobbered the Mormons?

 

Ughaibu: Which we couldn't have done without Gahd.

 

InfiniteNow: He saved my ever-lovin' neck!

 

Boerseun: Right! He's always come through for us and he will now.

 

(sings)

When you're a Atheist,

You're a Atheist all the way

From your first cigarette

To your last dyin' day.

 

When you're a Atheist,

If the spit hits the fan,

You got brothers around,

You're a family man!

 

You're never alone,

You're never disconnected!

You're home with your own:

When company's expected,

You're well protected!

 

Then you are set

With a capital A,

Which you'll never forget

Till they cart you away.

When you're a Atheist,

You stay a Atheist!

 

(spoken) I know Gahd like I know me. I guarantee you can count him in.

 

Turtle: In, out, let's get crackin'.

 

Ughaibu: Where you gonna find The Pope?

 

Boerseun: At the dance tonight at the gym.

 

TheBigDog: But the gym's neutral territory.

Boerseun: (innocently) I'm gonna make nice there! I'm only gonna challenge him.

 

Ughaibu: Great, Daddy-O!

 

Boerseun: So everybody dress up sweet and sharp.

 

ALL (sing)

Oh, when the Atheists fall in at the cornball dance,

We'll be the sweetest dressin' gang in pants!

And when the chicks dig us in our Atheist black ties,

They're gonna flip, gonna flop, gonna drop like flies!

 

Boerseun: (Spoken) Hey. Cool. Easy. Sweet. Meet Gahd and me at ten. And walk tall!

 

Ughaibu: We always walk tall!

 

InfiniteNow: We're Atheists!

 

Turtle: The greatest!

 

Turtle and InfiniteNow (sing)

When you're a Atheist,

You're the top cat in town,

You're the gold medal kid

With the heavyweight crown!

 

Ughaibu, Turtle, TheBigDog

When you're a Atheist,

You're the swingin'est thing:

Little boy, you're a man;

Little man, you're a king!

 

ALL

The Atheists are in gear,

Our cylinders are clickin'!

The Catholics'll steer clear

'Cause ev'ry Cross Bearer's a lousy chicken!

 

Here come the Atheists

Like a bat out of hell.

Someone gets in our way,

Someone don't feel so well!

 

Here come the Atheists:

Little world, step aside!

Better go underground,

Better run, better hide!

 

We're drawin' the line,

So keep your noses hidden!

We're hangin' a sign,

Says "Religion forbidden"

And we ain't kiddin'!

 

Here come the Atheists,

Yeah! And we're gonna beat

Ev'ry last buggin' theist

On the whole buggin' street!

On the whole!

Ever!

Mother!

Lovin'!

Street!

Yeah!

 

source

 

Bill

[Turtle]

I think you missed my point, Turtle.

 

I am all for the defense of science within these hallowed threads. And I think I do my share of that defense.

 

A thread like this one has the purpose of deconstruction of religion. So it is posted up and acts as bait for outraged believers to come and argue.

 

And now for a musical number...

 

Bill

 

Bill, I luv ya dude! I am immortalized in a song! :doh: I love it when you get the creative juices flowing. :)

 

BOT Going back to the first post of this thread, I think we see that this was no bait, but a serious question prompted by the material in the Gnostic gospels. In reading many of HBonds posts, I have the sense he is more to the theist side than not (correct me if I misrepresent HBond). While some of what I have said is in the 'defensive' stance, I have made it clear that I think the Bible (and other 'sacred' texts) contain valid historical records.

 

I didn't just make up the claim that Jesus was married, or gay, or bi, rather these ideas come from the ancient scrolls and writings that have surfaced in relatively recent times and even more recently been popularized in books and TV programs such as the one I hope we all will try to watch this evening.

 

Inasmuch as I have read the Gnostic gospels and the Dead Sea Scrolls, (and a number of different flavors of Bibles) I have more of an opinion on them than what folks say they say. I think you will concede that I have some little ability in figuring things out for myself, and from what I read in these works there is evidence that Jesus had an intimate association with Mary Magdelene and she was not a whore or anything of the kind. I note with interest I have started and engaged in some serious threads on Biblical archaeology in the theology section, but the theists (and non-theists for that matter) seem to have little interest in the science of that. :naughty: :)

 

Here is an online source for the Gospel of Mary:

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene

[Buffy]

Dear kindly Sergeant Big Dog, you gotta understand,

It's just our bringin' up-ke that gets us out of hand.

Our mothers all are junkies, our fathers all are drunks.

Golly Moses, natcherly we're punks!

 

Gee, Officer Big Dog, we're very upset;

We never had the love that ev'ry child oughta get.

We ain't no delinquents, we're misunderstood.

Deep down inside us there is good!

 

There's something to be said for tolerance of other beliefs. Not all mind you: delivery and intent is everything. Debate is fine, but it has to be in context. "Taking every opportunity to fight evil" is an extremists view and extremism knows all faiths and lack thereof.

 

Hold my hand and we're halfway there, :naughty:

Buffy