Religion (and lack thereof) at Hypography

[DougF]

Reminds me of the conversation Ellie Arroway had with her dad before he died in the Carl Sagan book "Contact." :)

 

 

 

If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?

~Carl Sagan

Ya but it's good line.

[JamesBrown]

I'm a theist I would like to think that God (or my version thereof) had a hand in this Blue Ball we all live on, if he made this place then why not more? if we are alone, then it's a real waste of SPACE. IMHO.

I completly agree with you on this one Doug (all except the god part). This is what I'm doing about it.

http://www.SETI.Net

 

Regards....... Jim

[REASON]

Backing up a bit.....

 

Per the Final Anthropic Principal, the life that exists (past, present and future) will continue to evolve with the inanimate resources of the universe until it all reaches a state called the "Omega Point." This Omega Point is an Entity that has the properties of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, with the capacity to create in the past. In other words, the Creator-God does not exist yet, but we (all life and all inanimate structures in the universe) are gradually evolving into God. When God is thus finally constructed, His power will be such that He can create the entire universe with all of its characteristics of design billions of years ago.

 

Hmmm.....Circular concept.

 

There appears to be no point of origin....kind of like the chicken or the egg thing. And with no point of origin, it seems inappropriately named since there is no end in sight. It kind of has a reincarnation theme.

 

What would motivate an entity, once it had achieved the properties of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, to relinquish that power by recreating the universe and starting all over again.....boredom maybe?

 

Or maybe the newly created universe will end up with a second all powerful entity, and the two of them create new universes, and so on, and so on, and so on, and.....

Maybe this has been going on for a while and that's why some people believe in more than one God.

 

God is simply a concept. As conceptual beings, God represents for us the limit of our perception, because God is a concept without limitations.

[ughaibu]

About the "spiritual atheism", here's a short article about ietsism (somethingism): Ietsism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[pianoman1976]

 

What would motivate an entity, once it had achieved the properties of omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience, to relinquish that power by recreating the universe and starting all over again.....boredom maybe?

 

 

It's not recreating the universe, it's creating the universe - in the past. Big difference. If It doesn't create the universe in the past then It cannot exist in the present. Now I've gone cross-eyed. Anyway - this would be the motivation.

 

For more cross-eyed fun with time check out the 'Grandfather Paradox':

 

Grandfather paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Pyrotex]

...God represents for us the limit of our perception, because God is a concept without limitations.

I would say that "God" is a concept that purports to have no boundaries. The concept itself has severe limitations. For example, you can't "fix" anything with it.

 

With the concept of "electricity" or "leverage" I can fix lots of things.

[Zythryn]

The concept itself has severe limitations. For example, you can't "fix" anything with it.

 

Sure it can! The concept of god has been used by many to 'fix' the fact that they didn't have the power over others that they wanted:D

[pianoman1976]

I would say that "God" is a concept that purports to have no boundaries. The concept itself has severe limitations. For example, you can't "fix" anything with it.

 

With the concept of "electricity" or "leverage" I can fix lots of things.

 

The God mechanism can do wonders to ones soul, and can transform ones life. It's the world of intangibles, a nebulous world which science is just beginning to scratch. God can do wonders in this realm and it is from this realm that we are all connected.

 

Even if you are opposed to God, you have to at least validate the findings that "faith" i.e. a belief in a higher power - something or someone that you can hand your **** over to when it gets out of hand - has tremendous benefit to a human being. Faith may simply be a psychological mechanism, or it may be a bearded man in the sky, either way - it works. I could share countless stories, including my own to back this up.

 

I pity atheists. I find them equally as sad as a bible belt fundamentalist Christian. There is so much missing when you choose this approach. It so helps to have someone at your back - a wingman. This is why the 12 step program works.

 

Religion has done so much damage to the God mechanism. This is why so many are opposed to it. The heretics that use God as a crutch to cover up their own darkness - and then try to recruit others into a way of blind concordance to ridiculous rules and regulations that do nothing other than to restrict creativity and dampen the souls potential.

 

Amen.

[Edella]

I pity atheists.

Spare us your pity, it's condescending and you know it.

[pianoman1976]

Spare us your pity, it's condescending and you know it.

 

It sounds like someone needs a hug.

 

I'm sorry if this offends. I did not mean not condescend. Really.

 

It's hard to define my feelings in other words. Maybe I should have said sorrow, mercy, compassion, empathy and/or sympathy - although those may be misconstrued as well.

 

What I meant was that I do know atheists - and they are all miserable. They may be successful people with successful careers and families - but they are an unhappy bunch - filled with negativity and judgment, angst and confusion. I feel for them. Take that as you will - I'm not being a prick.. to the contrary.

[C1ay]

I pity atheists. I find them equally as sad as a bible belt fundamentalist Christian. There is so much missing when you choose this approach.

 

That sounds like an invitation to call you on the rules here. Now that you have effectively made the claim that God exists we will be expecting your proof. I didn't "choose" to deny God, I simply acknowledged that no one had ever provided any proof of such. I'll be looking forward to your revelations....

[Buffy]

What I meant was that I do know atheists - and they are all miserable.

That may say more about your choice of friends than the "effects" of Atheism.....

 

Sampling Error,

Buffy

[pianoman1976]

Sampling Error,

Buffy

 

I could have sworn my sampler was sound. :)

 

 

That sounds like an invitation to call you on the rules here. Now that you have effectively made the claim that God exists we will be expecting your proof. I didn't "choose" to deny God, I simply acknowledged that no one had ever provided any proof of such. I'll be looking forward to your revelations....

 

lol.

 

That's very bureaucratic of you. I'm still working out the equations, I'll be sure to submit them when they are complete.

 

I didn't mean to claim that I can prove God exists. My only claim is that faith can work wonders on a human being - whether it is God at work or a psychological mechanism.

 

Let me say this now in hope to stop an avalanche of hate that I may have started. I pity main stream religious people the most. I retract my statement, 'pity' was the wrong word to use. Making this kind of statement on a science board is an exercise in futility. I have deep respect for science and truth. I just think that you are missing out if you don't consider that there may be something more.

 

I have witnessed faith or a belief in God doing wonders to a life. Fixing the most perplexing, unfortunate human problems. It seems to me that when you open yourself up in this way - you are more open to love, and it is love that does the razzle dazzle dance to ones life.

[Buffy]

I've seen Pot and Morphine do similar "wonders": I'd also say in a lot of cases and especially in the long-term, they're not "solutions" and can even be highly detrimental. You yourself point out that "mainstream" religions can have bad effects.

 

I'm glad you've retracted your "pity" statement, but I hope you realize that it is a perfect example of why belief in God can be as hurtful as it is helpful.

 

So its not clear what your point is: It's surely a datapoint, but its not clear how meaningful it is.

 

You might want to think about that.

 

Zero-blind experiments,

Buffy

[pianoman1976]

 

So its not clear what your point is: It's surely a datapoint, but its not clear how meaningful it is.

 

You might want to think about that.

 

 

 

Hi Buffy,

 

I'm quite clear as to my conviction regarding faith and I think I stated it quite well. So no further thought is necessary, on my part. Religion, God and faith are not the same things. Maybe I could explain it in more depth when I have more time. Of course my words will be of little meaning to an atheist! It's like speaking a different language.

 

Sensitive subject matter. Maybe we should stick to samplers and chocolate chip cookies.

[Buffy]

I'm quite clear as to my conviction regarding faith and I think I stated it quite well.

Don't be to sure about that: its like the Sixties: if you think you remember it, you probably weren't there... :)

Maybe we should stick to samplers and chocolate chip cookies.

Oooooh! Yummy! I like oatmeal chocolate chip with walnuts!

 

Question certainty,

Buffy

[CraigD]

What I meant was that I do know atheists - and they are all miserable. They may be successful people with successful careers and families - but they are an unhappy bunch - filled with negativity and judgment, angst and confusion.

Being on opposite coasts, it’s unlikely to work out, but if you’re in my part of the world (The Washington DC metro area) for any length of time, I can introduce you to a good-size pack of atheists who are very happy, positive, nonjudgmental, un-angsty, and confused no more often than circumstances warrant, ranging the spectrum of conventional success from millionaire to near destitute. You likely know several such people yourself, but, unless you rigorously ascertain, verify, and note the beliefs of you acquaintances, have not had occasion to speak to you about their atheism – for many people, its not a subject for introduction or casual conversation.

 

I believe I am, and am described by most people, as a happy person, and count myself an atheist.

 

These counterexamples aside, I believe the correlation you describe between happiness and theism is real. I don’t have a link handy, but recall a strong “ah-ha” moment when reading a study of a questionnaire-based survey showing a significant positive correlation between question responses indicating “happiness” with ones the authors termed “mild delusion”. People who’s responses were indicated strong material realism tended not to self-describe themselves as happy, and report more episodes of despair and depression than those who’s responses did not.

 

My personal experience suggests less of a connection between happiness and any cognitive trait (eg: theism or atheism) than studies like these do. In my life, I’ve been in a range of circumstances from wretched to extravagantly privileged, yet regardless of circumstances, found that I seemed to settle into a generally happy emotional state, despite my belief that there is not God and that I lack an immortal soul. I have know people with profound belief in God and confidence that their souls would survive the death of their bodies, who nonetheless suffered from disabling, sometimes suicidal depression, despite their faith.

 

Based on scattered and spotty neuropsychological research, of which I’m not an expert reader, I believe that these apparently cognition and circumstance-independent happy/unhappy personality traits are due to neurochemical/anatomical traits, likely with strong genetic predispositions.

I pity atheists. I find them equally as sad as a bible belt fundamentalist Christian.

Knowing people in both categories, I find that I pity no person because of their membership in either. I know people in both categories who have suffered misfortunes and the consequences of bad decisions, and have felt pity for them. I’ve been harassed by theists who believed I, too should be a theist, and felt irritation toward them. I’ve known vocal atheists who I though were foolish. But I’ve not pitied any person because they were or were not a theist.

There is so much missing when you choose this approach. It so helps to have someone at your back - a wingman.

This statement seems to assume that all atheists are self-isolating individualists, without social and emotional support. Some, I suspect, are. Neither I nor any atheist I know is. Just as a theist is gratified and heartened when a person validates their belief in God or gods, an atheist is gratified and heartened when a person validates their lack of belief.

This is why the 12 step program works.

I know several recovering alcoholics who continue to enjoy the support of AA (the organization most commonly associated with “the 12 step program”) members. Interestingly, one is a stanch atheist, as is his entire Washington DC-located chapter. Though a brief perusal of the 12 steps would appear to require belief in God, they use them with references to God removed. The rephrasing, as well as the precise number of steps, seems to vary a good bit, yet retain the general feel of the approach. Although this community considers itself an AA chapter, I’ve read of and seen television documentaries on similar non-theistic alcohol and other addictive behavior support groups, who, like my friends “atheist AA chapter”, report a typical rate of recovery success.

Spare us your [pianoman1976] pity, it's condescending and you know it.

I’ve had many theist express pity for me, some in an way that seem unfriendly, condescending, some in a way that felt heartfelt and compassionate. My impression is that pianoman’s pity is of the latter kind.

It sounds like someone needs a hug.

Except for rare (but generally happy) situations where folk were “hugged out”, I’ve rarely known anyone who couldn’t benefit from a hug :)