Which is trump: Truth or success?

[coberst]

Which is trump: Truth or success?

 

Without a question, there is no doubt.

 

Truth is what is, no matter what humans may desire. Truth will, in the end, win out.

 

When we are dealing with humans, short term success is often divorced from truth. Human will, can be easily manipulated; politicians and business managers have become expert at manipulating human will.

 

A current glaring example is the Iraq war. If the war was a success, in American terms, few Americans would care about the truth of the matter. Whether the war caused 600,000 or 30,000 dead Iraqis is of little concern. Only when success is not achieved is the truth of the matter in question.

 

I think that we are always better off, in the long run, if we value truth more than success. Preparing our self to recognize truth is a long, arduous, and many splendored task; it is well worth the effort. Do you agree?

[Kriminal99]

Only when success is not achieved is the truth of the matter in question.

 

A universal truth of human behavior, yes I certainly agree. Unfortunately in the iraqi war issue I don't think most americans even care because it is not an issue for them specifically.

 

To use maslow's needs, truth is an issue of security (2nd order need) for people who are directly affected by that which they seek the truth of. On the other hand if they are not directly affected by that which they might seek the truth of, it is a much lower order need - Need to belong to a society and help it function or something like that.

 

Which is trump? Consider the following scenario. A small town has a small population of people who mostly care about enjoying their lives, and one astrologist. The astrologist requests help from other citizens to be aware of their planets surroundings but the others refuse because they believe it does not impact their ability to acheive their goals. One day a meteor comes that would wipe out the town. The astrologists sees it and evacuates the town.

 

The meteor is an incarnation of random punishment, and the astrologist is the truth seeker. If they were all astrologists the townspeople would live less enjoyable lives, however with one astrologist they were able to avert destruction.

 

Truth affords ability to achieve future success in abnormal and/or infrequently experienced situations, where as success seeking allows one to achieve success in most frequently experienced situations. These are sometimes mutually exclusive goals.

 

However, truth seekers are capable of changing the enviornment so as to alter the behavior of success seekers. This has already been done to some degree as is demonstrated by the concept of education - Creating social pressure to gain knowledge.

 

Success seekers can be compelled to learn everything that truth seekers know and be the better for it, but they still will be different in that truth seekers will always be looking for previously undiscovered knowledge.

[automatic existence]

Truth is of absolutely no value (or importance) to human beings in it self.

It’s only indirect value is when it helps us archive "success". I.e. “truth” about nature helps us survive. “Truth” about mechanics helps us build machines. All for our pleasure.

 

Some heretics find pleasure when looking for what they

perceive to be truth, though. They are mostly ignored...

...or killed

 

But we sure do like to pretend truth is both of the greatest value and importance. We generally find a lot of pleasure in delusions. They are like cheat codes for life.

[coberst]

Kriminal

 

I think that I comprehend much of what you say but the bit about astrology was over my head.

[coberst]

Automatic

 

Truth itself will make the judgment. For example, if it is true what science says about global warming, then in 100 years truth will provide the answer? If we should ignore that truth then we and the whole planet will be forced to deal with truth, with reality. We may be successful for a while by ignoring what is true but eventually reality will prevail. But truth is not an easy thing to apprehend. The question is will we make the effort to prepare our self for the arduous task of recognizing truth before it kicks out our teeth.

[automatic existence]

For example, if it is true what science says about global warming, then in 100 years truth will provide the answer? If we should ignore that truth then we and the whole planet will be forced to deal with truth, with reality. We may be successful for a while by ignoring what is true but eventually reality will prevail. But truth is not an easy thing to apprehend. The question is will we make the effort to prepare our self for the arduous task of recognizing truth before it kicks out our teeth.[/Quote]

 

That’s a very good example. Given that what science say about global warming is true, there are at least to possible outcomes:

a) We do something about it - and survive.

:eek_big: We do nothing about it - and maybe get extinct.

 

Let’s see here, truth is only important as long as it helps us survive. Nothing more, nothing less. Humans prefer to survive and to experience "pleasure/happiness". In many cases truth is necessary to accomplish that. By that I mean to say that truth holds no independent value or importance but is merely a means to get something else.

 

If certain consequences where not tied together with truth, it would not be desirable at all. This is apparent in many cases where completely disregarding the truth does not have negative consequences. In such cases the "good" consequences might be tied together with not believing/following truth.

 

Edit: Small rephrasing

[Buffy]

The question really is "WHAT is 'trump'?"

 

I guess in values, its good to go with truth, but to many "truth" is unknown or even unknowable. Thus, success provides the only measure of truth.

 

As a friend of mine in high school used to say--in reference to taking tests--"its not what you know, its what you remember in time."

 

No trump,

Buffy

[Kriminal99]

The astrology thing was a metaphor, and a typo for the astrologer was supposed to be an astronomer. The astronomer seeks truth - here the truth is the impending doom the meteor would bring. For this is what kind of truth I feel truthseekers look for - unforseen problems.

 

 

That’s a very good example. Given that what science say about global warming is true, there are at least to possible outcomes:

a) We do something about it - and survive.

:) We do nothing about it - and maybe get extinct.

 

Let’s see here, truth is only important as long as it helps us survive. Nothing more, nothing less. Humans prefer to survive and to experience "pleasure/happiness". In many cases truth is necessary to accomplish that. By that I mean to say that truth holds no independent value or importance but is merely a means to get something else.

 

If certain consequences where not tied together with truth, it would not be desirable at all. This is apparent in many cases where completely disregarding the truth does not have negative consequences. In such cases the "good" consequences might be tied together with not believing/following truth.

 

Edit: Small rephrasing

 

But there isn't really any limit to how complicated truths can be to allow greater success. People studying philosophy for profound truths are looking for security to save them from the random punishment they have become accustomed to experiencing. For them it is a greater issue but following the results they discover about what should be considered good behavior etc could result in greater efficiency in achieving goals for all of humanity.