Force between two atoms

[cwes99_03]

Gravity is proportional to one over the square of the distance. Likewise, EM is proportional to one over the square of the distance. Thus the inverse square law. I don't believe anyone here said that the EM force would be equal to the gravitational force at the same distance, just that they both decrease according to the inverse square law.

[Little Bang]

I had an interesting thought this morning. Jay said the atoms wouldn't come together with enough force to bond, he is right. The repulsive force of the electrons for each other and the protons for each other would prevent coming close enough for bonding but they would always remain in proximity with each other at a fixed distance except in this simplistic universe, wouldn't they eventually form a Bose-Einstein condensate? If this were true and there is a relationship between gravity and EM the two atoms would show no effects to a normal gravitational field.

[cwes99_03]

Little Bang I think you are making a leap to something you do not understand. Certainly if you don't know enough about atoms and EM you certainly do not understand Bose-Einstein principles of thermodynamics. Keep studying, but don't hop so much around. Stick with the original until you understand it. Or if you do understand it, I certainly haven't seen this demonstrated.

[Little Bang]

I found this at Wikipedia, is there any possible connection?

 

Superfluids, such as supercooled helium-4, exhibit many unusual properties. A superfluid acts as if it is a mixture between a normal component, with all the properties associated with normal fluid, and a superfluid component. The superfluid component has zero 1. viscosity, zero entropy, and infinite thermal conductivity. (It is thus impossible to set up a temperature gradient in a superfluid, much as it is impossible to set up a voltage difference in a superconductor.) One of the most spectacular results of these properties is known as the thermomechanical or fountain effect. If a capillary tube is placed in a bath of superfluid helium, and the tube is heated (even by shining a light on it), the superfluid helium will flow up through the tube and out the top (this is a result of the Clausius-Clapeyron relation). A second unusual effect is that superfluid helium can form a layer, a single atom thick, up the sides of any container it is placed in.

[Jay-qu]

I didnt say that they wouldnt form a bond, just that they probably wont gain enough kinetic energy from their gravitational potential to get close enough to bond (if someone knows the bonding energy of H2 this could probably be checked). Like Q said these equations are tough to wade through and I couldnt work out where an equilibrium would occur between the EM and Gravitational force.

[GAHD]

it appears that the author of this article is saying somewhat similar thoughts.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg19225771.800?DCMP=NLC-ezine&nsref=mg19225771.800

 

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0603033 -

Gravitomagnetic London Moment

 

 

Don't subscribe, read the non hype version. :confused: The PDF there will list out the experiment, data, and author's insights.

 

Somehow it still reminds me of "cigar craft"...

[Little Bang]

Jay, I wasn't saying anything about your comment. my post was to show that helium at close to zero appears to defy gravity although I suspect it is more of an EM effect.

[Qfwfq]

It's the source of heat that "defies gravity".

[Little Bang]

Is there another liquid that exhibits the same phenomena Q?

[Jay-qu]

Water forms a meniscus due to surface tension, or is this a totally different phenomena?

[ronthepon]

Water forms a meniscus due to surface tension, or is this a totally different phenomena?

It is surface tention and adhesion.

[HydrogenBond]

If two hydrogen atoms were to form a hydrogen molecule, they first need to overcome a slight activation energy barrier. In other words, there would be an initial slight repulsive force that needs to be overcome that is slightly endothermic. Once the roller coaster gets to the top of that hill, even more energy will be released, than was inputted, due to magnetic addition of the two orbitals electrons. The roller coaster goes over the hill into a deep gully below the starting area.

 

When the hydrogen are separate they have postive and negative charges cancelling. When they become a hydrogen molecule, they have that plus the attractive force between opposite spin electrons. The activation energy is connected, in part, to getting the two electrons to flip into opposite spin orientations that are able to add and coordinate. A good collision with a little energy input will do the trick, i.e, activation energy.

[Jay-qu]

But how much is the activation energy exactly? will the collision from the gravitation be enough?

[Little Bang]

In my imaginary universe the two hydrogen atoms could never unit. They would never get past the point where the attractive force and the repulsive force are equal. The purpose of my post was to maybe get someone with the necessary math skills to take an interest in the possibility of gravity being due to EM. I don't have those skills and at 67 probably will not get them. The reason I chose hydrogen is because it's the simplest structure in the universe.

If we could develope an equation that would show the force between the two atoms with respect to distance, we might be able take two objects that we know the total number of protons ( and electrons ) then calculate the force between them using that equation, we might find that it equals the same value that we get from newton's equation.

[Qfwfq]

The purpose of my post was to maybe get someone with the necessary math skills to take an interest in the possibility of gravity being due to EM.

It's a highly doubtful possibility, but the reasons are hard to explain if you say you lack the math skills. From the standpoint of field theory, gravity is a very odd beast.

 

I'm not so sure of exactly what you mean about another liquid exhibiting the same phenomenon. If you mean "heat defying gravity" then the answer is yes, because temperature affects density. It's a far more moderate effect but the surface of a liquid will be slightly higher where it is warmer. Of course, a difference in density may be caused in other ways such as water being less salty than the rest of it.

 

Strictly though, it isn't really defying gravity, any more than when a stone is raised from the ground by a force other than gravity. In the superfluid case, the warmth breaks the Bose-Einstein condensed state, this is an inhomogeneity that breaks the equilibrium and causes the flow.

[Little Bang]

Q, I appreciate you post but it leaves me with a sort of anger, not an emotional anger but rather an intellectual one. If you can show mathematically that there is no relationship between gravity and EM please post it here. That will give me the inspiration to acquire the necessary skills to understand. I received my BS in physics in 1964 and my studies stopped because I had a family to support. I worked as a design engineer for the next ten years. The rest of my life I was a sales engineer for electronic instrument marketing firms the last one my own. I got interested in physics again in the first part of 2005 when I joined Hypography. I have my old calculus book lying in front of me printed in 1957.

[InfiniteNow]

If you can show mathematically that there is no relationship between gravity and EM please post it here.

Isn't this one of the primary areas of focus of individuals searching for a GUT / TOE? I'm not sure it's been "proven" one way or the other (there is or is not a link between gravity and EM)...